Red Sox Reality Check with Gordo from Play Tessie

355 BaseballBiz with Gordo on Boston Red Sox

Mark Corbett: [00:00:00] Welcome to BaseballBiz On Deck. I am Mark Corbett, and I'm waiting for my good friend, Mr. Mat Germain, and here he is ready to join the meeting. All right, man. And with us is none other than Mr. Gordo himself from Play Tessie, talking about that team we all love to either love or hate, and that is the Boston Red Sox.

Man, oh, man, it is great to have you here today, Gordo. How you doing, man? 

Gordo: Good, guys. Thanks for having me. 

Mark Corbett: It's an absolute pleasure, my friend. I tell you what, this season, I'll, I'll let Matt speak for himself, but for me it has been completely different than e- whatever I thought it would be.

I've mentioned before we started recording here, Matt, that, uh... Told Gordo you and I were looking maybe a 500 team for the Rays, and I, I don- I, I didn't know what to expect when I look at the Red Sox. And we're so glad you're here because I'm looking and I'm thinking, "My gosh, what [00:01:00] a great pitching rotation."

And seeing Sonny Gray the other night, oh, my gosh, what a feat. What was it? Six innings and nine strikeouts? That is fun baseball. 

Gordo: Yeah. I mean, the, the rotation, the Sox have their problems. The, the starting rotation, not one of them. The pitching staff in general, bullpen included, it's the best ERA in, in the American League in the month of May, so if you wanna point to their problems, I mean, it's pretty cut and dry.

Like, the starting rotation, even without Garrett Crochet has been great. 

Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

Gordo: Bullpen, when they're, when they're winning games, they typically don't blow them in the seventh inning or later. They got a pretty locked down Slayton, Whitlock, Chapman trio right there at the end. But the issue is you gotta get the, get it there with a lead, and it's hard to have leads when you don't score many runs, and this team, they just, they don't score many runs.

Mark Corbett: That is it. Yeah. It's, you know, and baseball's such a fickle thing. I'm- I was looking at a game the other day with the Atlanta Braves and the Marlins, and I, I see the final score, Marlins 12, [00:02:00] Braves 0. And I'm thinking, "It makes no sense to me." But coming back to the Red Sox, it's like good gravy, man. You, you, you've got, you've really got a strong, like I said, pitching rotation.

What do you think you need to see as from the offense? Is it, is it new people? Is it a new direction? What, what is it for the Red Sox to make that grow? 

Gordo: I think it's gotta be a little bit of a couple of things. I mean, first off, you need guys that, that you've seen perform in the past and you know are capable of, of being good ball players to be good ball players.

You look at the three, I believe, worst offensive seasons in Red Sox history by individual players are happening right now by three players on the team. Hm. Trevor Story, Jarren Duran, and Caleb Durbin. And now, now Story's gonna be out for a long time, so we'll, we'll take him out of the conversation, but Jarren Duran is a guy who a couple years ago was top 10 in the MVP voting.

Last year was- player, maybe not the 2024 level, but still a productive guy for you. And this year it's just, he's been to, for [00:03:00] better, for lack of a better term, he's been useless for them. So, I mean, you need guys like that to turn it around. You need ideally an addition somewhere in the infield to, to give some sort of injection of life into the offense, and you need Roman Anthony to be a little bit closer.

Mm. First off, he needs to get healthy, but second of all, he needs to be closer to the guy they thought he would be this year, uh, and further from the guy that he's been to this point. And really, the bar is so low. It, it was as of Sunday, so really only one, one day has passed since, but if they had exactly four and a half runs a game, which is league average, runs per game is four and a half.

If they just did that every single game this year, they would have the best record in baseball. Yeah. At least as of today. Which is, which is remarkable, but it, it just shows you how low the bar is. Like, this team, if they're gonna pitch like this, if they'll play defense like this, they don't need to have a top five, six offense in baseball like most of the, of the great Red Sox teams of my life time have had.

They, they pitch and they play [00:04:00] defense enough where just average they would be a really good team. But I mean, to this point they've been a bottom three offense in baseball, and there's really no argument to be had to say that they're any better than that. 

Mat Germain: Yeah. The, the odd thing is tonight as the games are about to start, both the Red Sox and the Rays have allowed the same number of runs.

Identical. Which is, you know, it tells you everything about the offense on the Boston side that you need to know. Because with, like you're saying, the support being adequate, even just that, it would be there. Now, having said that, the Red Sox let both Rafael Devers and Alex Bregman go for d- different reasons at different times.

But do you think that now through attrition they've put the focus on players that are not able to make adjustments the same way that those professional style hitters would've been able to manage, and to support the rest of the lineup? 'Cause that's what I see, is that there's a lot of feast or famine in that lineup, including [00:05:00] Duran.

Gordo: Well , first off, when you let guys like Rafael Devers and Alex Bregman go, I mean, if you'd told me last year last year it was we've got two all-star third baseman duking it out, and both of them wanna play the position, and now - it's Caleb Durbin's your third baseman.

He's been one of the worst players in baseball. Yeah. So it really is, it's you let stars go, and it does put a lot of pressure on guys that, that haven't done it yet. Like Wilson Contreras has had a really good year, but he's had a really good year for a guy who's hitting fifth- Mm-hmm ... and is maybe the fourth or fifth or sixth best hitter on a really good team.

But you're relying on guys like him and Abreu, who also probably should be in that third or fourth best hitter on, on a good team. You're relying on those guys to be your best and second best hitters. You're relying on guys like- Caleb Durbin to be, I don't wanna say middle of the order bats, but better than, than bottom portion of the order bats because you've already got two positions allotted to guys that you have there for defense.

Catchers, Narváez, he's there for defense. Center field. Mm. Seid Ramon [00:06:00] Rafaela, he's had a, a solid offensive season, but you and I both know he's there for his defense. So it, it puts a lot of pressure on guys who, who haven't done that and shouldn't be asked to do it, and honestly, the, the biggest victim of it has been Roman Anthony.

Mm. Most of these young kids, they come up and they're asked, you know, "Hey, you're gonna hit seventh in the lineup and you're gonna have all these guys in front of you," and it's just you develop as you go. But- With him, it's, "You're gonna hit lead off. You're gonna hit third." Yeah. "We need you to be our best player.

We need you to be an MVP candidate, 'cause if you're not, we're just not gonna be a very good offensive team, 'cause look around you." 

Mat Germain: . What about Christian Campbell? Like, and the reason I ask about him is the same time that we're talking about the Red Sox offense struggling, their AAA team is leading the league in, in h- in scoring.

So there is talent, on the doorstep. I, I know they've called some people up because of injuries recently, like Nick Sogard and a couple of others that were do- having success in AAA, and X-Ray, by the way. So the, you know, Christian Campbell is one of those [00:07:00] guys that was supposed to be a premier talent coming in, and thought of, I, I would say similarly to what Carson Williams was with the Rays, but with a better hit tool profile, where he can actually get on base and not strike out , as predominantly as Carson Williams would with the Rays.

So what's going on with him and, and is there anybody else in AAA that they could kind of call up and, and help the team out? 

Gordo: Well, I'll start with the second part of that question, 'cause you mentioned Nick Sogard and another one has been Mickey Gasper, and both those guys, switch hitters, who are playing great in AAA, and both have gotten their chances.

And Sogard just got called up, so he's only had a couple games, but he's looked good, and Mickey Gasper has made such an impression on them. And I get, I get that the bar is low. You really don't have to do that much to be one of the better hitters on the team right now, but , they've had him hitting second most games- Mm

in the last week. So yeah, there, there is some talent in AAA, not necessarily like, those guys are not big time prospects or anything, but clearly they've shown in AAA that, "Hey, , we, we are capable of helping the big league team." And maybe they're not gonna carry an offense or anything, but [00:08:00] again, with the bar being so low with, with as bad as some of these guys have been down there, those guys have been able to come up and secure spots in the lineup, and they are playing most days now.

Mm. As for Campbell, it's tough, 'cause you're right. I mean, huge ceiling. We, we saw it in the first month of the season last year what he can be, but he hasn't been that guy. And even in AAA, he's shown stretches where he, he looks great, and then he's gone back down and he's had cold streaks.

They're gonna play it slow with him. They, and they have to. They really do. Because y- you, if you call him up again and it doesn't work, we've, we, how many guys do you see get called up, sent down, called up, sent down and it just hasn't worked both times and they get sent down again? And how many of those guys, I mean, we're, I guess we're seeing an example, Jordan Walker this year in St.

Louis, where it is possible. But you gotta be careful with Campbell, 'cause if he's not hitting for you, he's certainly not adding to your defense, and that's kind of been this one team's saving grace has been the defense. Yeah. So unless you know he's gonna come up and hit, unless he's tearing it [00:09:00] up in AAA, like, c- cannot hold him back, I don't think they can bring him up un- unless true emergency they absolutely have to do it.

I think they're gonna slow play it with him, and , I still do believe in the kid. I just, you know, he, he got drafted, he played one year of minor league ball, and then he was in the big leagues, and I think he just has to take the slower track that 99% of, of major league prospects take. And hopefully it's, at some point in time, even if it's next year, I, I think he'll get there.

But I just, from what I've seen this year, there have been a lot of things to, to get excited about, but it's not in the sense that he can come up and help this team right now. 

Mat Germain: Right. One of the things that they did though is they moved him to the outfield, which is interesting because, you're talking about you were mentioning before at third base or in the infield needing some help.

He has a history of, of being in the infield. So my thought was, well, can he return to second base and then, or to even manage third? , Is he that capable in the infield to [00:10:00] do something like that? In which case you can put Caleb Durbin back at second base. He's much more comfortable at second base, and I think that's why he's having issues right now, , trying to fill that void at third base and putting too much pressure on himself there.

It changes the whole chemistry of the team as well. , I don't know what the rapport is between Christian Campbell, Roman Anthony, and all the young guys, but sometimes that whole melding of minds, at, of a certain age and a certain group can help one another out and feeds the machine basically to get things rolling again.

Um- Yeah. 

Gordo: I mean, Christian and, and Roman and Marcelo, they, they're all close. They, Roman Anthony and Marcelo Meyer called him Barry Bonds back in double-A together 'cause he was having that incredible of a season. Yeah. But y- you said it, he's been playing exclusively outfield, hasn't played an inning on the dirt this year.

Mm. And considering the outfield logjam where they've got Roman Anthony, Jarren Duran, Ceddanne Rafaela, Wilyer, Breu, add Masataka Yoshida in there, that's five guys for three outfield spots plus a DH, and they're still only playing Christian Campbell out [00:11:00] there despite the fact that in the infield, like I said, I mean, Caleb Durbin and Trevor Story have been occupying two spots in the infield.

Like, you could use help in the infield. Right. And they still haven't tried him on the dirt. I think it just speaks to how they view his infield defense. , , if it were me, I would go all in on trying to teach him one of the, one of second or third base and, and get him comfortable at one of those spots, because , when is your team going to need an outfielder?

Unless you make two pretty significant moves, which maybe that's in their near future, but they haven't done it yet. So for me, I mean, you'd be- Much more likely to be able to use the guy if he, if he takes off offensively if you taught him one of those two positions in the infield. I, I remember talking to him last year after he got optioned to, to triple A and I asked him, "What position on the diamond are you most comfortable with?"

'Cause he was working all over the place. He was playing second, he was playing first, he was playing all three outfield positions. I go, "Where are you most comfortable?" And he told me it's shortstop. And obviously he's never gonna be a major league shortstop, but - most of these kids that are infielders come up playing shortstop.

Yeah. [00:12:00] So it, it's not surprising that that's the most, the place he's most comfortable, but it does speak to the fact that, hey, like, this guy has been on the dirt most of his career. So if you could get him comfortable at, at second or at third, and we really haven't seen him at all at third. Right. I- if you could do that, that opens the door to if he starts hitting, he can get a shot with this team.

Whereas right now in the outfield, even if he's killing triple A pitching, there's still really just no place for him. 

Mat Germain: Right. So to me, you only leave him in the outfield if you're looking to open up trade possibilities. Yeah. Whether that's him or somebody else, one or the other. Uh, or like you said, I, that, my, my thing is always what do they have to lose, right?

Right. You're at the bottom of the division. You ha- you're having issues at third base. Caleb Durbin could probably use a spell in triple A at this point with how things are going. You do a little bit of a swaparoo. You , get a look at him. He has the arm for it. I think he's athletic enough to get the range going.

The pro- the question is the reflexes and just the throws across the diamond. Like, so measuring those out- Yeah ... and [00:13:00] really- Yeah ... I don't wanna say it's simple 'cause it's definitely not. No. The 

Gordo: at- the athleticism is why I've always believed he could do it, but they've just- Right ... never kept him at a position, like a so...

Like he, even when- Right ... he was playing second base, it's like, "Oh no, we're gonna teach you first too." Yeah. They've never let him just sit there and try a position. Even in the minors he was playing all over the place. Mm-hmm. It's like, the kid's an athlete. Like, he can get it. You just gotta let him try. I mean, at least that's my thought.

I n- they obviously know him better than me, and he has, he has been a fine defender in the outfield. If you ask like where does he profile best? Mm-hmm. It is the outfield. But unfortunately, and, uh, maybe it's a good problem to have, I guess, but there's just really never gonna be an opening there unless you make multiple significant trades, 'cause it's not like any of these outfielders they've got are even rentals.

Mat Germain: The other thing I was gonna ask is with the young group, and you've got a, a new manager now, how is that new relationship building going between that new manager and the team right now? Do you feel like there's an uptick? Do you feel like there's a, kind of a, a consistency being built in? [00:14:00] 

Gordo: Yeah, definitely.

I mean, Chad Tracy, he's got relationships preexisting this new role for him with a maybe 80% of the team, and , he's a really calm, cool, collected guy, a players' manager. Friendly guy. Really friendly guy. , And the players, particularly guys like Marcello, like the kids that have come up through triple A recently They all really like him.

It's not, not to say anything against Alex Cora, 'cause that team loved Alex Cora too. Mm. And when Cora got fired, you heard it from the players, Trevor Story, Garrett Whitlock, guys in that clubhouse, and they didn't get an explanation that they thought was sufficient from the front office right off the bat.

But I, I'm not sure they could've gotten an explanation that they thought was sufficient because that's their guy. Yeah. Mm. So it's been kind of... It's weird just because they all really do like, love Trace. But at the same time it's like, "We didn't ask for this. We didn't ask for you to fire our manager."

Yeah. At the same time you got a guy like Crochet saying, "It's our fault. You know, we, we didn't perform and so we got our guy fired, and we should be looking inward." And I thought that was a really good [00:15:00] thing to say. But yeah,, they're basically a .500 team since Chad Tracy took over. I'm not sure, you know, fire the manager, don't fire the manager, I don't know how different it would've been, 'cause in the end they had good pitching.

We all said it going into the season, this team was gonna have good pitching, and they don't have a good offense. And it's definitely worse than I think most people thought. But firing Alex Cora and firing the hitting coaches wasn't gonna all of a sudden make a bunch of average to below average bats into the Los Angeles Dodgers.

Mark Corbett: Well, Matt and I were talking earlier this year too about the Red Sox that Cora was handed in spring training, and what that was gonna look like trying to turn something quickly into a very competitive team with a , lot of youth there as well. 

Mat Germain: And then to transition from Bregman basically over to the next core, right?

Yeah. That's basically what you're doing. And, , I think when you're in the AL East, more than any other division, you can have lulls here and there, [00:16:00] but the margins are so thin. Yeah. You're seeing it with the Orioles. Like, the Orioles are a very talented team with a, a, a lineup that should be a beast, and they brought in Pete Alonso, and they brought in, you know, a lot of, of oomph to a lineup that honestly had...

has all the talent to build around. But they never understood that you need the balance between offense and defense. , And really , that's the thing that the Rays have been able to actually capitalize on most, that a lot of other teams aren't able to, to kind of find that niche, is that balance between, "Okay, this player gives me outstanding defense and he chips in offensively.

Well, that's great." You know, Manuel Margot would've been a, a good example- a player that a lot of teams would've walked away from. The Rays loved him. They put him in right field instead of center, and they let him go with it. If they had to put him in center, they did, so they had that versatility.

But he, the, the, the pitchers applauded him constantly. Look at Nick Martinez this year. Constantly applauding the- Yeah ... the defense behind him, and, and [00:17:00] they're cheering each other on and, and it kind of becomes this machine that keeps going and going. I, I don't think I've once seen a, a Red Sox player cheer other people on for , a, a tremendous, play that was made behind them.

I don't know, maybe I don't watch enough Red Sox games, but it doesn't seem to be the same, , level. If anything, I see Trevor Story bobbling a heck of a lot of balls at shortstop a- and a lot of frustrated pitchers as a result on occasion. Um, but , the outfield defense, like you said, Rafaella Duran, , a couple of other guys have made,, some nice plays that...

Rafaella, oh my God, so many tremendous plays in center field. , I don't know why, , the front office hasn't really tried to replace Bregman and hasn't really focused more on, you know, going to get that next guy to kind of be the leadership guy. But the Red Sox have a, a leadership issue now that Cora and Bregman are both gone, and I think they need to rebuild their identity.

[00:18:00] And to give it all to Roman Anthony, you know, all at once is not fair. Oh, yeah. I don't think there's a pitcher on there other than Gr- Garrett Crochet that's able to be the catalyst, and really a pitcher, can only do so much. There has to be a position player there that is the marquee guy that'll set the tone, you know, a- and I don't know who that's going to be for them.

Honestly, I don't know who's gonna grow into that role yet. 

Gordo: Yeah,, the truth is they've had good leaders come and go from this team for years. Like, you had Xander left, and then they bring in Justin Turner and he was awesome. Great player, great leader. Yeah. They let him go the next year, and then it's, it's Alex Bregman's turn and he changes the organization.

Now he's gone. You had Refsnyder who became a leader. He left. Mm-hmm. They've got some guys, but it's like Willson Contreras, he's been really good, guys respect him, but at the same time, he's 34. Yeah. He's got another year left on his deal after this, but it, this doesn't [00:19:00] seem like a guy who's going to be the veteran presence for several years- Mm-hmm

to come and pass on the torch. They do need better veteran talent. There, there are a lot of young guys on this team, and there are not, there are not a, a lot of, of veteran voices, and maybe that's part of why the team has had a little bit of trouble kind of- Mm-hmm ... adjusting to this identity because, I mean, you guys watch the Rays every night, and it's been like this for years.

The Rays, the players that play for that team buy into what the team is. We're gonna pitch, we're gonna play defense, and we're gonna do what we need to do offensively to win games. The Red Sox do the first two things, but they just... And, and we saw it with the series the Red Sox played the Rays. Tons of bunting, just doing, doing things to, to just get on top, get a lead, and we can work with that.

With, with the Red Sox, it's just to win games with pitching and defense, you gotta steal bases, you gotta bunt, you gotta be a good situational ball club, and they just haven't really mastered any of those things. And whether it be a leadership thing, whether it be the, the caliber of players they have on the team, I [00:20:00] don't know, but it just...

It, you haven't seen it to this point, but it really does just... It's so frustrating, 'cause you, you see, again, how low the threshold, how low the bar is, where it's like if they j- could just get even close to average, which- So do you- ... which by bunting better, by stealing bases, by just scoring one more run per game- Yeah

you really would, you would get there. 

Mat Germain: Do, do you have a feel on the organization and how they run the minors? 'Cause one of the things with the Rays is that they, their mantra, the, what you were just talking about, is something that is instilled from the FCL upwards. Every single coach and player buys into it , and it's fed, , the system all the way through so that when the guys arrive at the top, they are literally, sold through and through.

I don't wanna say brainwashed into it, but they've bought- Drinking 

Mark Corbett: the Kool-Aid ... 

Mat Germain: and, yeah. And they, it breeds winning all the way through the minors. So right now I can look at the Rays system. Three out of the four teams are above 500, one is just nearing it. , Most of them are gonna make the [00:21:00] playoffs this year, and I know that that's the same thing annually.

So what is the mantra that the Red Sox have in their system? Is it n- and is it strong historically on an annual - basis? 

Gordo: You know, I think this has been one of the gripes, and it's something that they've started to try and change, and we haven't heard, at least to this point, because it's so new, how it's been going.

But in recent years it's been totally analytics based. Like, we're gonna- Mm ... try to improve guys' exit velocities, we're gonna try to improve their barrel rates. Like, we're focused on those things. We're focused on the analytics. And it led to, I mean, up until this year, 'cause obviously they've been the best defensive team in baseball so far this year, leading the league in DRS.

But up until this year, and I guess last year they were, they were good metrically, but they made a lot of errors, but the fundamentals were lacking in the majors and, and a lot of that was attributed to the minors and not putting emphasis on fundamentals, not putting em- emphasis on, as you say, winning baseball.

And maybe [00:22:00] they've made changes defensively, but we're not seeing a lot of changes offensively. Like, the, the situational hitting. I mean, granted, I guess a lot of the guys that are with the team right now were not minor leaguers this year, so it's not like you're gonna see, uh, changes, snap your fingers and it's gonna be all different, it's gonna 180.

But yeah, it, it, it has been a gripe that people have had with the organization, something they've, they've, they're striving to change and, and be better at, at- I guess promoting winning, but make no mistake about it, like they are analytics first, and that's a big reason why a lot of the coaches were fired, why Alex Cora was fired, is that it kind of felt like there were two different lessons being taught.

And in the minors it's we're gonna talk about exit velo, we're gonna talk about all this analytical stuff, we're gonna do the driveline approach. Whereas in the majors it's like we've got a bunch of old school guys here and we don't really, we don't really do that. , Yes, we've got some driveline types that Craig Breslow, , instilled here.

But make no mistake about it, this is Alex Cora's team, and he's got his staff, and they do things their way. [00:23:00] Now those guys are gone, and I, I suppose to... If you wanna put a positive spin on it, the organization is a little bit better aligned. But there's a lot of guys that were promoted to roles in, uh, in the majors in the middle of the season, a- and a lot of guys that have not been in those roles before, uh, on Major League teams.

In fact, I don't think any of them have been in those roles on Major League teams before. So sure, maybe the organization's a little bit better aligned in, in what they're trying to preach, but is that even for the best? Who knows? 

Mat Germain: Here's another thing, another positive that I'll spin on it, is this organization and ownership really have been extremely aggressive in making changes when they feel like they need change.

And, and to be quite honest, since the year 2000, no other franchise has been as successful at doing that. So you have four championships since 2000. Like, how many teams would give up a lot of things? True. The Dodgers, , would have spent billions of dollars and still have not reached that many. So, there's a lot to be [00:24:00] happy about, but the, the thing, it takes some time, right?

There's, there's an adjustment period and then an aggressive spending that happens normally to get the right pieces in place. Do you feel like this time it's a little bit different? Because we're, from what I'm hearing, ownership has other ownership, and they have their own priorities. And so they're, the backing financially isn't necessarily the same as you would expect, in the past.

Am I right in assuming that? 

Gordo: Yeah, I mean, look, look at the recent seasons as, as your evidence. I think after the Red Sox struggled in 2022, you know, they made the playoffs in '21, it looked like they were kind of ready to get back on track after the tough '19 and '20 seasons. 2022 doesn't go well, and we're all expecting big things to happen.

Really nothing happened. '23, same thing. They missed the playoffs. We're expecting an adjustment. This ownership group in the past when they missed the playoffs, and certainly when they missed the playoffs back to back years, , they course correct. And whether it be for the better or for worse, they're gonna try something, and they, they really didn't.[00:25:00] 

A lot of it coincides with, as you mentioned, , , they've purchased other teams and they've s- they've sold the Penguins, but that doesn't mean that they're more focused on the Red Sox. Like, they invested in the PGA, they've got Roush Racing, they've, they've still got Liverpool. They've got a ton of stuff that, that they have their eyes on too.

So I don't think you can count on them doing any hardcore course correcting, at least as it, as it pertains to the money. I mean, you saw the hardcore course correcting as it pertained to firing the coaching staff and the manager, but in terms of if they get to this off-season and they, and they miss the playoffs, I know that in the, in the late 2000s and the early 2010s and the mid-2010s, they missed the playoffs.

I'm expecting them to do some stuff. I'm expecting them to, to make big changes, that we're gonna, we're gonna fix this. . I, yeah, I don't know. You, you don't, you can't have expectations going into off-seasons with these guys anymore. It doesn't... It's not to say they don't spend money, 'cause they, they did spend money this off-season, but I just don't think it's gonna be like, "Hey, they missed the playoffs.

Who's the biggest free agent on the board? Oh, it's Tarik Skubal? We're gonna get that guy." [00:26:00] I just don't think they're that ownership group anymore. 

Mat Germain: So, what could you get on the market for $40 million? Right? That's essentially the difference between what they spent in 2018, and they won the World Series, than what they spent this, this year.

So, 43 million is the difference. So, my question is always, okay, so if it worked really well for them at 230 or 233 million, and then the next year they had 236 million, they did well as well, it wasn't as great as whatever, but why would you then drop all the way down to, you know, 180 million to, uh, a hund- 170 million even in 2024, and now you're sitting in the 190s.

When you're a large market team, you have one of the best fan bases in history in Major League Baseball. Yeah. Like, there isn't really an excuse, and I think the Blue Jays learnt their lesson in that, and they spent, and then look at what happened last year, right? They got to where they want it to be because now they were able to pair the pitching, the great defense , and the on-base, tenacity.[00:27:00] 

So I, I question why the organization that, that, to be quite honest, would benefit more from having a winning Red Sox team than not, , what their ambitions are. Like, did they win too many titles and they're just not hungry enough anymore? Could that be the 

Gordo: problem? Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. 'Cause I mean, you can, you can see it from their actions.

Sam Kennedy can, can sit in front of a microphone and say that this ownership group cares about winning just as much as they always have, but the proof is in the pudding. Like, they're clearly not as aggressive as they used to be, whether it be because, as you said, they won four World Series and it's just they're not as hungry anymore, or whether it be because they've got other priority, priorities or just people change.

I don't know, but you can't make the argument when you look at where they were in regards to the rest of the league in spending. Yeah. I mean, top, top dogs in the league in 2018, and they're, they've barely been cracking top 10 and sometimes finishing outside the top 10 in recent years. I mean, it's just...

That's what it's about. Like, yes, if you look at total dollars, but you look at, I mean, baseball inflation is big. Like, these, the- these [00:28:00] teams are spending more and there's more teams that are spending more than they ever have. And the Red Sox have been content to kind of keep it similar, to where it's been, and not grow , with the teams like the Yankees and the Dodgers who are adjusting to now we've got teams like the Mets spending, we've got teams like the Phillies spending, we've got teams like the Padres spending.

It's- Oh, man ... all these teams are just adding to their payroll, and the Red Sox are just, "I mean, we, we're spending our money and we're gonna do it our way, and we see teams winning with less. Like the Rays, they win with less- That's it ... and it's possible to do, so we're gonna try and do that." And it hasn't been working.

See, and 

Mark Corbett: that's it. I, I think a lot of folks say the Rays way, and it would... I thought that's one of the reasons you guys brought in Chaim Bloom years ago- Mm-hmm ... was looking for that model saying, "Okay, can we build a team with less money? What do we need to do that?" And one of the things, as Matt was talking about earlier, is breeding from a farm system all the way up was, is one way of controlling some of those costs.

But the expectation of being able to put that model on something that already has a strong framework like the [00:29:00] Red Sox, with such a history, you, you just can't, you can't try to put a Volkswagen engine inside of a Porsche and still make it look like a Porsche, you know? And- You can, 

Mat Germain: but it'll sound funny.

Mark Corbett: We, we started out with a Volkswagen, so it wasn't so bad. We souped it up. But 

Gordo: That's the thing, though, is, is it's the same thing as this year. It's like the Red Sox have the pitching and they've got the defense to be one of those teams that, hey, they can be that pitching and defense team, but they, they haven't, at least offensively, bought into the way you win games with those kinds of rosters- Right

like a team like the Rays has. You can see it. It's the difference. The Rays are sitting in first place, the Red Sox are sitting in last place, and that's literally the reason. Like, the Rays, if you look at their names offensively, obviously Junior Caminero's there, and the Red Sox don't have a Junior Caminero, but everything outside of that, like, it's like the Rays have all these names that the Red Sox don't have.

They just play the game the way you gotta play it to win games with what they've got on the other side of the ball. 

Mat Germain: Yeah. Well, I would say that the, [00:30:00] the Rays trio of Diaz, Aranda, and Caminero is very similar to what the Red Sox used to have with David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez- Yeah ... and, and, uh, Johnny Damon, right?

They have catalysts that are gonna carry the lineup day in, day out, and I don't know if you've watched Jonathan Aranda much. Uh- Oh, he's a good 

Gordo: player. He's a good player ... but he's 

Mat Germain: outstanding at the plate, wears pitchers down. And, and the thing with all three of those gu- or I should say two of them, Aranda and Diaz, really, is they don't need to have pitchers be in the zone, right?

And I think that's a bit of the, the issue with the Red Sox. Yoshida's one guy that I know is really disciplined at the plate, and you can't fool him, basically. But outside of that, they, they... I think they lost a lot of that when Bregman walked away. Their strikeout rates overall through the lineup are much higher than they've historically been.

Am I right in assuming that, or? 

Gordo: Yeah. The strikeouts, it's... it hasn't been good. It's, they've, they're basically d- in the bottom three in the league in most offensive stats. With [00:31:00] strikeouts it's real- it's bottom 10. So it's not good, but, like, there's a million other things that- Right ... are doing worse, so it seems like it's not as bad as it is.

The thing is, you've got a couple of guys in the lineup, you look at Yoshida and Caleb Durbin, for example, guys that are really high up the rankings in terms of putting the ball in play. Like, they're not gonna strike out a lot. Mm-hmm. But Yoshida hitting around 260, 700-ish OPS maybe, maybe even lower now at this point.

He's gone through a little bit of a slump. And Durbin obviously one of the worst hitters in the league. And it's like, okay, you're putting the ball in play, but you're not doing a- doing anything with it. Then obviously you've got a bunch of other guys on the team that, that strike out a lot. I'm looking at Jarren Duran, I'm looking at Trevor Story, like guys that you expect to be impact players that are swinging and missing, chasing.

Like, the Red Sox swinging at balls outside the zone a ton, and they also let a lot of balls in the middle of the zone go by. Like the swing- Yeah ... decisions have been brutal all year. That's 

Mat Germain: frustrating. Yeah. The, I don't wanna scare you e- either, but I do want to, to touch on this, because I think [00:32:00] sometimes it can mean a lot, but sometimes it also wakes up a team and h- gets them performing for whatever reason.

But the schedule that you guys have coming up is brutal. It's bad. Oh, you've got the Braves, the Guardians, the Orioles, Yankees, Rays, Texas Rangers, Blue Jays, and then the Mariners. All division leaders or near, you know, very, very competitive one or the other. And then you do have a break with the Rockies, but then you're back to the Yankees and the Nationals.

Like, that is a brutal month and a bit to go through. Like, it's not gonna be easy for them to turn things around during that stretch. 

Gordo: No. I, they, they've pissed away a pretty good run of opponents, and hopefully they can take b- care of business with the Royals, but that's a tall task, 'cause I, I don't think they're, this Red Sox team really has earned the right to use the term take care of business, because they're in the bottom barrel of teams with anyone else.

You can look at any team and they're, they're down there. But yeah, they've got I think maybe the hardest schedule in the league from now until the end of the season. I [00:33:00] think it does rank- Mm-hmm. I would agree ... hardest in baseball. Yeah. So- Yeah ... I mean, I, I, I'll, I'll sit here and I'll talk about how low the bar is.

Oh, if they could just score four runs a game. But at the same time, some of these teams they're gonna be playing, like I get the pitching has been great, but some of these teams, like particularly the Braves, and they did just face the Braves, in two of the three games they held them at bay offensively, but you're not gonna do that against all these teams, these good offenses they're gonna face.

Like, you're not gonna be holding these teams- No ... to, to two and three runs a game. And so far this is maybe the craziest stat of them all, but when the Red Sox allow more than two runs this year, they're six and 26. Oof. More than two runs. That's crazy. Oof. 

Mark Corbett: That's crazy. That is tough, man. 

That is tough. 

Mat Germain: And July's not any better.

You've got the White Sox which are doing well, the Mets which are- Yeah, they're good ... turning things around. Yeah, who'd have guessed? The Rays again, the Orioles, the Blue Jays, the Dodgers, the Athletics. So my point is, and I'm leading to this, is you get to the trade deadline, you're still not in it. Let's just say, [00:34:00] like, we have a decent argument to say, "Okay, you're not going to be leading the division by that point."

So let's say they, the, the Red Sox are selling. What do they have to offer other teams at the trade deadline, and what would you like them to see? Are we talking, uh, tweaking? Are we talking, like, a significant turnover of players? 

Gordo: The trade deadline's gonna be interesting, and let's assume for the sake of discussion that they're gonna be selling.

Mm-hmm. They've got maybe one actual legitimate rental player on this team, and it's Sonny Gray. Everything else, like Aroldis Chapman has a, a vesting option. Wilson Contreras, like, yeah, he's a veteran, but he's got next year under contract, too. You need offense. You're gonna trade that guy away and now be even in, in an even deeper hole for next year?

So in, in terms of rentals, there's not a lot. It's Sonny Gray. For me, if I'm the Red Sox at the deadline, if I'm selling, sure, go ahead and, and trade your rental Sonny Gray. You've got tons of starting pitching. Like, get what you can for him. Starting [00:35:00] pitching, pitching always a premium at the deadline.

You'll get something good if he keeps this up, if he keeps pitching well. I, I would... It's not a true sell. I, I would, I would look to target some sort of offense that, that has team control. Yeah. Go for next year. And, and hey, you never know. Sometimes teams tur- like we saw with the Cleveland Guardians, like, they were all the, all the way out of it last year.

Like, if you aim to win next year and add offense you need for next year, who knows what could happen this year? But you've already got a head start for next year's offense, and to me, that's gotta be the most important thing. Like, we're not doing a full rebuild. Like, this team has ... They've achieved it with the pitching.

They've achieved it with the defense. Like, they're not, even though the team is really bad right now, they're not leaps and bounds away, like, "Oh my God, we need a full-on retool, reset." Like, they could snap their fingers, add a couple of bats, and this is a really good team as soon as the second half of this year, but they, they have to actually do it.

Mat Germain: Right. So the, the one thing I would mention, and, and I would deal Contreras for sure, because I know I can get a first baseman [00:36:00] anywhere, like literally. So, so I can replace Contreras. Now, the other players, I'm, I agree with you. Like, I think you have to let p- players grow. And we've seen it with Jared Kelenic.

We've seen it with, you know, the player you mentioned earlier, where they turn things around, but they have to be given that time. And you have to take that Jordan Walker kind of, you know, uh- Point of view because the value of those players once they figure it out is so tremendous that you can't find that on the free agent market, literally.

But I would add that your pen, you know, we've seen the Rays and other teams go and get three, four, five really impactful prospects, , that end up helping them out long term just by trading one or two or three of those relievers. And so when I look at , the Red Sox pen, , it's in the top 10 , of the league easily a- and you have those intriguing pieces, and it doesn't have to be Chapman.

It can be , the support cast behind that you're able to deal from and replace. , As long as you're, you're trusting your pitching staff and [00:37:00] your development, you can go out and get guys. But they have guys that are performing really well, like Rivera, Slayton, Bello, , Whitlock, Kelly.

There, there's a lot of guys that have looked good and could have value for teams that are looking for niche help in those specific areas. 

Gordo: , In terms of the bullpen, there's really one name, maybe two, I think you could look at at the deadline, but it is the top dogs. It's, it's Chapman and it's Whitlock. Mm. 'Cause with, with Chapman, yes, he's got the vesting option, but if you're out of contention this year, you're basically asking yourself a year and a half from now as he's approaching 40, is he gonna be this dominant closer?

And what can he get for us at the deadline? I mean, we see some... You can look at what Jo- Joan Duran got for the Twins at last year's deadline, like Mick Abel, that's a big piece. And, uh, yeah, Du- Duran's got control and he's younger, I get it, but Chapman has been the best closer in the game, him and Mason Miller, for the last year and a half now.

I mean, he's got a one ERA, less than one this [00:38:00] year. I mean, he's been incredible. Uh, the other one would be Garrett Whitlock, who if I'm the Red Sox, I would be really hesitant to trade 'cause he's, talk about a, a, a stabilizing force, a leader, a voice, someone that, that is just so cool, calm, and collected, and you want relievers to gravitate towards and be like.

Like, that's the guy you want leading that unit. I, I, I'd be more open to dealing Chapman, but you'd have to be pretty far out of it, and you'd have to get a pretty good offer. Like, to me, I still see him as a, as a piece that can help you next year. So if you, if you get blown away, by all means go for it, but you're gonna have to fill that spot in the off-season.

You better be prepared to do it if you do trade him. 

Mat Germain: I could see the Rays going after Chapman. Mm. To be honest. Like, they, it's the one area they've been aggressive in at the deadline is either a veteran reliever- Or a veteran hitter. And so if the Rays are really gonna go for it this year, I could see them.

And they've been making more in-division trades than ever [00:39:00] before. They have the system. They're getting the number two pick overall this year. They're not gonna be worrying about, uh, dealing from it as much as they normally would. I think that the... You know, there's a chance that after having let Pete Fairbanks walk, literally- Yeah

there's a good match there in terms of need and want. And the Rays, you know, traded Baz to, Orioles for a significant package that has a lot of really intriguing pieces I know the Red Sox would love to bring in. , That's just an example , of value, , that would be sitting there.

But I, like I said, I don't know if, if that would really happen, but I could see it. Like, I could see the Rays having interest in, in Aroldis Chapman. 

Gordo: I could too, definitely. I mean, short term, they've, they've been... People think the Rays don't spend any money, but they've been more than willing to, to invest short-term dollars in, in sure bet pieces.

, That's Aroldis Chapman right there. And the Rays have a good bullpen, but it's been kind of mix and match in the back. He's obviously as far from mix and match as it gets, and it would allow everyone to go down a [00:40:00] slot. A good bullpen becomes even better.

Mark Corbett: Yeah, I've always thought of Pete Fairbanks as a stone-cold assassin.

You know, you bring him in, he is the closer. And while we have some good folks that close and re- and relieve, I don't think of any of them as like, oh, that's the guy. That's the guy I absolutely can depend on to take that ninth inning and t- put it down. It's done. But yeah, I could sh- Aroldis Chapman, though, come on, dude.

You know, you know how many pitchers I have in my stable that can throw 96 miles an hour? Geez. I'm making a reference to Kevin Cash from years ago. He made a comment to Boonie after Aroldis Chapman hit one of our guys. 

Mat Germain: Mm-hmm. I'm more thinking like Kevin Bro- sorry, um- Who was it? Mike, Mike Brosseau- Yeah

and that whole scene with the home run. Oh, yeah. That's what would get replayed over and over and over- Oh, yeah. ... if that happened, so, uh- Yeah ... it'd be interesting to see for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It 

Gordo: would be different. That was a great moment. 

Mark Corbett: Mm. [00:41:00] Absolutely. Hey, I did want to note, uh, something I saw Craig Calcaterra say, and he was actually a reference from a gentleman by the name of Ben Gentleman, Chomsky.

He said that Sonny Gray last night ju- he struck out Bobby Wood Jr. for his ninth strikeout of the game, and that's his 1,955th strikeout of his career, and that tied him with Bobby Witt Senior's total strikeouts. So- 

Mat Germain: Huh. That's crazy. Crazy. Wow. 

Mark Corbett: So Bobby Witt's total, 1955, Senior, 55. That was the strikeout to Sonny Gray through to throw out his son, so.

Mat Germain: And, and then people say there's no baseball gods. I mean, come- Somebody's up there playing chess, I'm telling you. Ah, it's crazy. 

Mark Corbett: It's wild. Any other things we should know about the Red Sox that we haven't talked about thus far, Gordo? 

Gordo: No, man, I can't- ... cut and dry, pretty simple.

It's, it's [00:42:00] they're not hitting, they're pitching. They're playing defense, they're not hitting. Yeah. That's it. It's, it's as simple and cut... It's there's no, there's no underlying anything. The team is exactly what they look like. 

Mat Germain: What are you looking forward to most for the rest of the year? Like, keeping that glass half full.

Gordo: Getting Roman Anthony back. 

Mat Germain: Yeah. That's, 

Gordo: that's, that's the most important thing, and n- not just getting him back, but him being the player that we all know he can be and know he should be, and have seen him be. Last year he was one of the best hitters in baseball. , After his second week in the league, he, or he just took off, and , we've seen it before and I know he can be that guy, but it's gonna take consistent playing time.

It's gonna take getting healthy, and hopefully not only is he back soon, but back and fully healthy. Yeah. 'Cause he's not gonna take off if he's playing banged up. 

Mat Germain: Yeah. 

Mark Corbett: That's awesome. So if I'm gonna be listening to Play Tessie podcast, what am I gonna be hearing, buddy? 

Gordo: Yeah, we're doing two [00:43:00] eps a week that are, that are normal eps, and sometimes we drop bonuses.

We got our first Who Says No of the season dropping, , the 20th, Wednesday this week. Uh, so we'll be doing a lot of trade deadline stuff. We're leaning buy right now because it's early, but obviously if they fall more out of it, then we're gonna start doing sell. But- Right ... it'll always be just like a where's the team in the standings, we'll buy, we'll sell.

So we'll do, do a bunch of pods. We'll hopefully get some more interviews the rest of the way. Uh, but yeah, a bunch of good stuff. We're, we're on, uh, Baseball Isn't Boring with Bradford once a week as well, so you can find- Good ... us there on the pod feed, on the radio on, on Sunday mornings. So, uh, really good stuff.

The team, like, we'll, we'll be there. The team, the team may let you down, but we'll, we'll be there regardless. 

Mark Corbett: All right, man. That's fantastic. Matt, you got any other questions or anything else you want to cover today, brother? 

Mat Germain: No other questions. I just want to say that, uh, you know, every year I think that the Red Sox are gonna do better than they actually do, so- Same.

I'm one of your off-season- Every year ... leaders. 

Mark Corbett: Well, let's wish you [00:44:00] guys all the best. You know, like I said, wish you all the best unless you're playing the Rays. And, but I'm looking at that cluster, man, at those... That's, you know, three, four, and five in the AL East, those teams. I mean, what is there, like a game between them almost?

And I just keep waiting for one to percolate above the rest and, and climb on up- Yeah ... into the AL East Division number one or two spot. We'll see what happens, 'cause baseball is a fickle little beast. 

Mat Germain: Oh, yeah 

Mark Corbett: All righty. Well, I wanna thank you again, Gordo, for joining us here today on BaseballBiz On Deck. It's been a pleasure having you here. I'm always glad to hear your insights and sharing what you do with us about the team. There's just a g- gives our audience so much more depth than we see just looking through the pages of the paper

Thank you, sir, for joining us. 

Gordo: Yeah. Thank you, guys, for having me. 

Mark Corbett: Well, thank you all again for joining us here today, and we look forward to talking to you all again real soon. Boom. There it is. Oh, man. Thank you so much, Gordo. That was a- Yeah ... blessing, brother. 

Gordo: Awesome, guys. Thank you for having me.

Narrator: You've been listening to BaseballBiz On Deck an interview with special guest and friend, Gordo, Boston Red Sox analyst with the podcast Play Tessie. You can find Gordo's commentary also on X at @BOSSportsGordo and also on Baseball Isn't Boring 

Just a reminder, if you enjoyed this show, go ahead like and subscribe to BaseballBiz On Deck. You may also find BaseballBiz on Deck, on YouTube at iHeart Apple, Spotify, Amazon Music, and at baseball biz on deck dot com. Also you can find Mat at M-A-T-G-E-R-M-A-I-N dot B Sky social. That's Mat at M-A-T-G-E-R-M-A-I-N dot B, Sky social or Mark at baseballbizondeck at gmail.com and BaseballBiz On Deck with Facebook social. ​.