Make Me Commissioner - Jane Leavy - Loving the Game & Making it Better

318 Jane Leavy

[00:00:00] Mark Corbett: All righty. Welcome to Baseball Baseball Deck. Hi, uh, Mark Corbett and with me of course is Mr. Mat Germain and we've been playing ping pong.

[00:00:08] Man, it's just been crazy. , The ra the Rays franchise does now have a new owner. It's official and they unveiled themselves this past Tuesday at George Steinbrenner Field. , I went to the press conference.

[00:00:23] , I was just stunned at how many media people were there. They had like six rows deep of media people and cameras everywhere. But it was quite the event. And now we know who these three owners are. Bill Cosgrove. Pat Zalupski..

[00:00:40] And Ken Babby. So, welcome to Tampa Boys and Girls. 

[00:00:47] Mat Germain: What were your thoughts on , the tone and the owners that you just named, , individually? What, what was your feeling, your gut feeling about the trio? 

[00:00:57] Mark Corbett: I tell you, I was so [00:01:00] happy because I got a different vibe a little bit from each one.

[00:01:03] There was a positive vibe. Mm-hmm. But Bill Cosgrove, he seems a little playful and somebody who's enjoys baseball and talked a little bit about playing as a kid. Patrick Zaki, he seems like the guy you want as far as working with real estate and development. That's, that's his life. Mm-hmm. And then you've got Ken Babby.

[00:01:25] This is a guy who grew up at his father's knee in Camden Yards. His dad was the, uh, general counsel for the Orioles. And what he's achieved to with you and f talked about this before the, uh, Akron rubber ducks and the Jacksonville team, the jumbo shrimp. I felt like this conglomerate of these three personalities is what it's going to take to make things work.

[00:01:50] So I was encouraged. There's so many times I look across baseball and I see ownership that's either one. Maybe somebody like, and this isn't [00:02:00] a slam, it just shows a mentality. Uh, somebody who's come from a, oh, I don't know, high fund type program or a Ivy School program, and they see from one perspective, I felt like these three owners will be able to bring something together and see a much deeper version of what baseball can be than, than Stu was able to himself.

[00:02:23] Mat Germain: Yeah. Yeah. I, I generally, I didn't have, any alarm bells ringing. I think they answered all their questions fairly, , honestly and transparently. Like, if they didn't have the answer and they weren't gonna answer it, they explained why they weren't going to, uh, everything made a lot of sense. They noted like all the usual suspects were there.

[00:02:42] So you had Colleen, you had Mark, you had, so all of them got , their one question in each, uh, so they hit on all the primary, uh, people that they're gonna be answering questions to, , for the foreseeable future. , I think really you have to be encouraged if you're a Rays fan and you're listening to everything going [00:03:00] on, like, these seem like the kind of people that will ask a lot of questions from the fans, get feedback, and probably put a lot of things into play that the fans recommended.

[00:03:11] And I think it took Stu a long time to get to that level, right? Yeah. Of, of getting that right. I think what you're gonna see fans asking for is to reopen the upper levels of the trop, uh, having more flexible ticket packages, having more, you know, events around the game, not just the game itself, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:03:33] So I think you're gonna see them really play up. Um, and, and he mentioned it like, right as spring training comes through and the season's about to start, you're gonna hear about all these initiatives that they're doing to change it. I was most curious about. The, the question that they asked about refurbishing the trop or how long it could end up being in play, and, and you know, they, they talked about investments that they're gonna make in the Trop, and I'm wondering just to what level they're going to [00:04:00] do that?

[00:04:00] Well, well, what's your inclination on that part? Like, 

[00:04:04] Mark Corbett: well, they indicated that it is gonna be even greater experience than we had the last time we were at the Trop. Mm-hmm. So, I don't know what that is all going to be. They complimented Ken Welch and the, and the folks from St. Pete's several times, mayor Ken Welch.

[00:04:18] And they said like they were working on some pieces together. I think they know they have to get it right first, and if they don't deliver on what's being said now, I don't know where they will be. I mean, let's, this is the, the thing nobody wants to talk about, but with the CBA coming up and everything else, the boot, you better have your good will right now because I, we don't know what's gonna happen in a year.

[00:04:43] Right. And I, I think whether that's gonna happen or not, their commitment to this area and to their own investment is to really make the Trop, you know, go off with a bank. So we'll see. 

[00:04:58] Mat Germain: One of the first things I think they could [00:05:00] do that would attract a lot of interest is to drop the parking prices. Like honestly, they just, yeah.

[00:05:07] Whether they make it two bucks, like a, a nominal amount or five bucks or something really tiny that, that they can promote and, and just welcome the fans there and say, listen, come back, have a look at what we're doing, yada, yada, yada. That should be part of their packages because you know, if you're gonna make that drive and then you're gonna drive back if you are coming in from Tampa or elsewhere, you know, you wanna have, um, the best financial experience, not just the best experience of watching baseball.

[00:05:37] So I think that's the easiest low hanging fruit that they can kind of tackle. Uh, because the rays did do a decent job of, of heightening the experience in the trop. They had the light thing with the roof going on. They had, you know, a lot of, of investments that they made for the standing areas and whatever.

[00:05:54] I think they got to understand how to add a little bit of flexibility on that front. Uh, [00:06:00] and like I said, the ticket packages were starting to improve. Yeah. Uh. The grit and glow were really awesome. I don't know how you top that one. Um, so, you know, there's, there's a lot of positives for them to build on and to kind of grow from, from there.

[00:06:13] So I'll be curious to see what they come up with. I know they'll get really creative and think of things that we can never think of, but, uh, overall I think the other, uh, interesting things, and I put it out in in blue Sky, was the budget will stay fairly similar until they get improvement some way, somehow, whether it be attendance or whether it be, you know, other ways or other avenues that they get funding from.

[00:06:36] Um, but to be honest, mark, that still doesn't mean that they're gonna shy away from getting free agents. 'cause they have literally no commitments in 2027 or 2028. There is zero zero on the books for 2027, 2028. So they have a clean slate to bring in whoever they want as a core piece or as you know, to sign or to [00:07:00] an extension.

[00:07:00] So, yeah, I, I'm curious to see how the rest of the off season goes and how aggressive they, they let that, that's the other part I was gonna say actually was I love the fact that they're leaving the reins to Kevin and Erik and they said that over and over again, they are not getting involved with the baseball operations side of it.

[00:07:20] They're leaving that to Erik and Kevin and if, um. Ever they do get involved in the baseball operations side, they said that , they should have somebody basically take the reins away,

[00:07:33] Mark Corbett: right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I, I felt that they were committed to that. Now, you know, I had the opportunity to meet with, Ken Babby um, a week ago with a few folks at the Tampa Baseball Museum. And he made it very clear that they're gonna be going out in the community and they're gonna be listening.

[00:07:56] Mm-hmm. They're going to be taking in, you know, what the [00:08:00] community has to say. And he, he reiterated that too the other day at that owner's press conference. From what I've seen of this guy, I can't imagine that he's the anything but authentic. You know, the genuine article, if it's coming out of his mouth, he believes it.

[00:08:14] He's not, he's not blowing any sunshine up here. And his commitment to success for the Rays is probably just about as strong as his commitment to making baseball fun. Again, he Should I get a hat, like a make baseball fun again? Okay. We'll figure that out later on with, I need a red cap. But, uh, uh, it's, he is going to be, you know, looking to those type of things.

[00:08:40] , Hope that we were gonna be able to have Jane Leavy on here today and talk about some of the things. 'cause she's got some great plans. . On making baseball fun again and being a commissioner. Maybe we'll get here. Oh, it looks like this. Hang on, hang on. Here we go. Hello. Hello. Hello. Alright. [00:09:00] Hey, Jane.

[00:09:03] My god, 

[00:09:03] Jane Leavy: I'm so sorry. I've been like sitting here punching numbers. I'm 

[00:09:09] Mat Germain: sorry. I thought, I thought you were gone for the Yankees right now. Yeah. 

[00:09:12] Jane Leavy: I can't believe 

[00:09:13] Mat Germain: you're here to be honest. 

[00:09:14] Jane Leavy: Um, well, I am. I just turned it on. I don't have no idea what's going on because I wasn't watching, I was pounding numbers trying to get on here.

[00:09:25] Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. 

[00:09:28] Mark Corbett: No, all good. 

[00:09:29] Jane Leavy: Is is this still okay? Yeah, you can, of course. Okay, great. 

[00:09:33] Mark Corbett: Because we've just been talking amongst 

[00:09:35] Jane Leavy: ourselves. Uh, what's on your cap? Oh, that, 

[00:09:40] Mark Corbett: uh, that's uh, Roberto Clemente. 

[00:09:42] Oh, it certainly is. Yes. Yes. 

[00:09:44] I had, uh, the good fortune of meeting Luis, Roberto Clemente and Tom Braseull, uh, a few weeks back.

[00:09:51] And, uh, they were, they gave me this as very kind of them. Very nice. Oh, that's 

[00:09:55] Jane Leavy: wonderful. 

[00:09:57] Mark Corbett: Well, let's go ahead and introduce you to the folks [00:10:00] on the show

[00:10:00] Jane Leavy: the, uh, field behind me that I'm looking at? 

[00:10:03] Mark Corbett: Oh. What you're seeing here.

[00:10:05] Jane Leavy: Yeah. 

[00:10:06] Mark Corbett: That is Al Lopez Field. Al Lopez. Is 

[00:10:09] Jane Leavy: that? Oh, no kidding. 

[00:10:11] Mark Corbett: The Godfather. 

[00:10:12] Jane Leavy: That's the one. Okay. The ba Okay. Yep. Gotcha. 

[00:10:15] Mark Corbett: Yeah. It's now part of the, uh, Tampa Bay Buccaneers parking lot. 

[00:10:20] Jane Leavy: Hmm. Yes. We revere our old architecture, don't we? 

[00:10:23] Mark Corbett: Gosh, dear. I tell you what, Jane, I mean Yes. Had had the good pleasure of meeting a friend of yours this past week.

[00:10:31] Janet Marie. Oh. She was here in town. And, um, talk about architecture. We'll talk about her in a minute. First, let me introduce you. Okay. Hey, folks, this is, um, Jane, and let me see, make sure I get your, if I get your last name wrong, get me slap me, Jane Leavy. 

[00:10:48] Jane Leavy: You got it right. Thank, 

[00:10:52] Mark Corbett: oh, gosh. You know, I didn't like le it didn't like Zel Zalupski or something like that, but, uh, 

[00:10:58] Jane Leavy: like Schlittler.

[00:10:59] Mark Corbett: [00:11:00] Oh, yeah. 

[00:11:01] Jane Leavy: How's he doing? Does everybody know? 

[00:11:03] Mark Corbett: Let's see. You got the game day up there, Matt. Okay. Go ahead. 

[00:11:07] Mat Germain: Yeah, it's one, one in the third, uh, fourth. Sorry. 

[00:11:11] Jane Leavy: Oh, so he is not doing too bad. Who's pitching? Is there? Is it a bullpen game? 

[00:11:16] Mat Germain: I, it started as such for, for the Blue Jays for sure. And then they ended up, uh, going to, hang on one sec.

[00:11:24] They had, uh, uh, Varland, Flaherty, and Dominguez. So, yeah, full bullpen. 

[00:11:31] Jane Leavy: I hate that. But I'm sorry. Just No, I get it. It's not the way mean. Okay. 

[00:11:37] Mark Corbett: No, no, I get it. I mean, you're, you're in a championship game and all this and you have a bullpen day. Uh, there are so many things. I first lemme say talking with Jane, read her book and I love it.

[00:11:50] Make Me Commissioner and Matt and I were talking before you got here. We've been talking that way about ourselves for for years. Years, huh. Ah, [00:12:00] so somebody who's actually got some depth to them. I love to actually, you know, see what they're going to do. And 

[00:12:05] Jane Leavy: I don't know if it's depth or chutzpah. 

[00:12:08] Mat Germain: Yeah, that's right.

[00:12:10] Mark Corbett: But you bring it kid, I tell you that much. I, I, I appreciate it. Wow. I, I wanted to take, there's one moment I want to start with from your book. Okay. And it's you, Joe, Torre and Sandy Koufax. 

[00:12:27] Jane Leavy: Yep. 

[00:12:27] Mark Corbett: And you're having breakfast out on a balcony and is it Cooperstown? 

[00:12:33] Jane Leavy: Yes, it's the Otesaga, um, on the lake in Cooperstown.

[00:12:38] It's the holy of holy places. , Other than the hall itself, uh, actually it may be more important than the hall itself, and it's for that weekend, nobody's allowed in there. You have to have, like, you know, a combination of badges and bracelets. It's ridiculous. , It actually kind of makes me a little bit.

[00:12:57] Um, queasy the way, the way [00:13:00] it's managed, you know, like these guys are like priceless antiques. I mean, some of them are, but, um, uh, that you have to take care of and under lock and key. , So it was in the Hotel Otesaga and, , , it was the induction weekend. It was 2019. It was induction weekend for Mariano Rivera.

[00:13:18] And so of course, , Joe was there because of, , having won four championships with and because of Mariano. And, , and Sandy was there because he's Sandy. He doesn't need a reason to be anywhere, but he does make an effort to go, particularly if there's somebody, he's a, he's a friend of or a teammate, um, and he's one of those old fashioned guys who, um, you know, refers to any Dodger, he's a teammate.

[00:13:49] Mm-hmm. It doesn't matter, you know, whether Live Dead played on the same team, it does not matter. Um, and I, I revered that I, that feeling that, you know, players used to [00:14:00] have about Yeah. That the uniform. Um, so anyway, we, we, we, we have breakfast and I, you know, I was, I was intimidated. I was thrilled and intimidated and.

[00:14:14] There are, you know, many rules at the Holy of Holies. One is that you never ask for an autograph. Okay, fine. I wasn't planning to ask for any autographs and you know, people are doing business and whispering things to each other, but, um, you're not supposed to, as a reporter, be doing interviews. I certainly, I didn't bring a pad, I didn't bring a pen, I didn't bring a tape recorder, nothing.

[00:14:36] I just was there and gaga. And, um, so they start talking, um, about the game, uh, today's game, which is clearly not their game. Yeah. And it's, it's clear in everything they say that, um, it's not the game they played. And so they talk, start talking, and the one thing I remember Sandy saying really clearly was, [00:15:00] and half the time, the pitchers don't know where the ball is going.

[00:15:04] , And Joe responding, um, it was a very brief conversation, but it was as if they were speaking in baseball tongues, you know, it was like, ah. Um, and Joe pretending he's holding a bat and leading forward, , like this, and, , saying something about how they have, the reason they have to reach across, or this, or that.

[00:15:26] It was like, it was like this little colloquy between Hall of Famers, you know? Yeah. Who, who of course had not only, you know. Were friends from Brooklyn. I mean, they're both from Brooklyn. Not that they knew each other in Brooklyn, they didn't, um, but they're from Brooklyn, and that's like saying he's a teammate.

[00:15:46] Uh, so, um, but it was, it was, I, I can't recall exactly what they said. I was too, , shocked and, you know, awed to, to like be able to focus. And [00:16:00] really, it was very quickly, but it was like, I had the sense that they had unlocked the secret of what was different today. And, , it didn't take very long as they finished their little conversation and, , Joe said hard to watch.

[00:16:16] Mark Corbett: Hmm. 

[00:16:17] Jane Leavy: Sandy said, I don't watch. And, um, I basically just said to myself, wow, that's the story. That's the story I have to tell. Um, and of course it got interrupted, uh, because soon there was the pandemic and, uh, that took a couple of years off everybody's lives. Yeah. And I'm not, I don't mean that jokingly because of course it, it ended so many lives.

[00:16:51] And I was fooling around trying to figure out ways to do it. I had looked for, a star, a person whose life story I [00:17:00] could add to the biographies I'd already written about Koufax and Mantle. And Ruth couldn't find anybody. And that too persuaded me that this was the story. Why can't you think of anybody in baseball to write about?

[00:17:16] Well, I have a couple of rules that made it harder. I admit, one is that I won't, , do the same subject that a friend has done. Mm-hmm. Whether I think they've done it really well or not done it really well. I just won't do it. I won't compete with, with friends. And, um, the second reason is if I think, think somebody's done something so well that it can't be equal.

[00:17:41] There's nothing, there's no new version, you know, oh, I'm gonna retell the story of Ty Cobb and now, now he's a nice guy. Right? Right. I mean, Charlie Leerhsen did that. , And I don't know if he's right or he is wrong, but it just seems you let everybody who takes on a subject to redo it has to [00:18:00] find a new angle.

[00:18:00] And, um, I, you know, I don't think anybody's going to. Write something about Joe Diaggio that equals what? Um, what Joe, what Richard Van Kramer wrote about Joe Diaggio. So when you take out all those people from the list of baseball greats who, um, might be suitable subjects, there weren't any. Right? Um, actually my agent suggested doing, um, Mariano Rivera, and then I had a new rule.

[00:18:34] No, I don't speak Spanish, and I don't think it's ethical to write a biography about somebody, um, who's, whose, you know, mother Tongue. You can't understand. You can't get the subtleties, you can't, you can't get anything. Right? , So I ruled that one out. And so more and more I was convinced this was the story to tell.

[00:18:57] , And when we came back from the pandemic, I, [00:19:00] I started doing that. And you recall that after that first season when baseball, reopened, , after 21, there were lots of headlines, baseball's, dead, baseball's dying, baseball's broken. And that again, convinced me, , that, this was the story to tell.

[00:19:21] Then they hired whether I actually, I've, I've. Confused the timeline here. Theo Epstein was hired, I think, I think it was January, 2021 to be what I like to call the, uh, czar of making baseball fun again. Yeah. And um, you know, and that was another thing that said, okay, this really is the story. They know it's the story.

[00:19:43] So I started working and working and, uh, without boring people about publishing and, you know, lead time on what you need, but there is no way, once they started testing the rules that they ultimately imposed in, um, [00:20:00] uh, 2023, there's no way in God's green earth that I could get a book done between the time Theo Epstein was hired and the new rules went into effect, right?

[00:20:11] So I pivoted and basically decided, okay, instead what I'll do is I'll spend 2023 going to every place in baseball, every level I can find, um, to see how it's, how it's doing. Are the new rules working? , Do they solve the problems? And to what extent, you know, does something else need to be done? , And then of course who's gonna do it?

[00:20:42] At which point I decided when Rob announced, when Commissioner Manfred, who I jokingly refer to as my predecessor, announced that he would, , give up the perch the end of his current term, , in 2029. I said, why not me? I'll do it. I'll be [00:21:00] commissioner. It's not, it's just, it's kind of a tough job if you do it seriously.

[00:21:05] So he has my empathy there. It's not an easy job. 

[00:21:09] Mark Corbett: Well, he's gotta keep 30 people happy, you know, I mean, the thing of it is he's the commissioner, but there's these 30 owners who pretty much I imagine dictate mo most of what's gonna happen across MLB. And, uh, Matt, I don't wanna be doing it all the talk here, but it's what he and I both have looked at owners and said, they seem to control so much of the game, but do they have the feel for the game?

[00:21:34] You know, I think with our new owners that we have, and looking at it the other day, uh, Cosgroves, Zalupski and Babby, that was, I, we were just talking before he came. There is like a triumvirate of energy that comes from these people. They not, they're not a one mindset. This isn't like, oh, we're all Ivy Leaguers.

[00:21:51] Oh, we're all, uh, high-end stock guys, or something along those, you know? And then I look at Babi and, and you see this guy who's, who was at the knee [00:22:00] of his father general counsel with the, with the Oreos, and he's been through that and coming up. So when. Before I continue, just blow on the, the 30 owners, they have a responsibility to make this game fun again.

[00:22:16] Mm-hmm. And I'm hoping we're gonna see that here. What are you seeing as far as owners and what, what are some of the things you'd like to see? 

[00:22:25] Jane Leavy: Well, I think, I think, you know, it's a very different era in ownership. Mm-hmm. The, the, the, the price of ball clubs has of course, skyrocketed along with the profit that one makes when one buys one and then sells one.

[00:22:38] . But , the, the classic difference between the people who used to own teams and the ones who now own teams is that they're no longer family owned. And so there was paternalism in that kind of ownership. I'm not saying that they were all, you know, uh, great forward thinkers, [00:23:00] um, about, you know, players' rights, for example.

[00:23:03] They weren't, um, but, , they did care about baseball. Yeah. And, and, and usually, and, and in lots of cases, it wasn't a sideline, it wasn't like a vanity per, they weren't like some, um, guy from, uh. The world of tech , who's anonymous except for the,, the dollars he owns , or the family money he's inherited.

[00:23:27] So, you know, let's buy a toy and I'll be known for, I'll get some good headlines for something else. There are an awful lot of those kind of owners now, , and I think that that's where the problem starts. It's not, I mean, there's nothing , in the, in capitalism, in the, in the directory of Rules of Capitalism that says you have to actually care about what you buy.

[00:23:49] Nothing says that. Um, you know, and certainly as far as I know, the only thing that you have to be in order to buy a team is [00:24:00] solvent. , And you don't even have to be willing to actually spend what you have on it, apparently. , And I think that's the biggest problem is you've got ownership that of, of some teams that just don't seem to wanna spend the money needed to win in this environment.

[00:24:17] Mark Corbett: Yep. 

[00:24:18] Jane Leavy: And that's partially because, uh, if I'm going off in a direction you prefer me to, you know, quit, please just say so. It's because of a, a gentleman named William Holbert who, , helped organize the National League in the 1870s and who is in the Hall of Fame. I somehow have missed his plaque. I've never seen his plaque.

[00:24:41] , And what he did in order to gain the, uh, trust and agreement of many of these rowdy owners back in the day, to get them to agree to a certain degree of uniformity in, you know, scheduling and roster size and things like that, and just a whole set of rules, how [00:25:00] the game should be played is you said, okay, here's what I'll give you, I'll give you the right to, profit from anything you can earn in marketing, though that was probably not a term used then, you know, you have territorial rights, right?

[00:25:16] , Not that there was a whole lot of dough, you know, involved in that in 1870, whatever it was. , And, but from that nugget, that from that original sin as it were, what has come forth is a system where funding is dependent on geography, the location of a team, and also the, the size of your market. , And also on an owner's ability or willingness to spend that, what she has.

[00:25:48] And um. So you have a situation where the inequities in, um, funding are, are laughable. I mean, you know, it's [00:26:00] the Dodgers with their $8 billion spectrum charter TV deal. , And I, I keep, I use this as an example because they were kind enough to be honest about it. And, and the royals with 40 to $45 million before their regional sports network crashed.

[00:26:18] Yeah. Thanks to the, the gambling entities that took it over. Right. That have taken over, um, RSNs. , So, you have a real fundamental economic problem there, and it's compounded by the fact that baseball in the present day is, um, played 162 games at, in stadiums that they cannot fill. There's too much inventory.

[00:26:46] , And a lot of people argue they're, they just need to cut down the season. Well cut down the season, you get, you earn less money, but it's not a good look when you turn on the television. And, and there are swaths of empty [00:27:00] seats ringing the field. I mean, was, you know, the, the dome wasn't a good look even before the top blew off.

[00:27:08] It was just, it was not a pretty sight. So, um, so there are fundamental issues that no one owner can fix. There's nothing, you know, there, you know, I, I don't know how you go to the Dodgers and say you spent, you know, it's the amount of thousands of billions of dollars to buy this. , But we're gonna tell you how to spend your money that you have.

[00:27:32] , Because guess what, rich people in AmErika don't like to be told they can't spend their money. Or that's the case of , Steve Cohen or the Mets, or that you must spend your money. So that's, that is the, the current, , problem and why there's likely to be a lockout because the owners are craving a salary cap, which they, the lack of, which they blame for all of this.

[00:27:59] [00:28:00] And there's, you know, there's, it's hard to com completely to argue with that. I wi I used to wish that Marvin Miller would come back to life and run the newspaper, union newspaper guild. That would've been, you know, it would've been a really good thing for, uh, maybe newspapers wouldn't be non-existent today.

[00:28:18] But, , it is a system that has made. In a very wealthy sport. It's a $12 billion, business. And it's made a lot of people wealthy. Um, but it's not equal. It's, it's, it is the haves and the have nots. 

[00:28:36] Mat Germain: I do wanna point out though, that it, it's not as dire as it may seem. In the year 2000 attendance was 71.3 million, and this last year was 71.4 million.

[00:28:48] Almost identical across the board in terms of attendance. Now there is, the, the, what you're talking about in terms of the half empty stadiums, et cetera, there's always been that factor, [00:29:00] uh, in terms of baseball, especially depending on who the opponent is, how many of those fans there are from the other team, they're gonna come out to the games what day of the week it is.

[00:29:08] I've always had a gripe with baseball games on Mondays. I don't think it should happen. I think Monday should be a travel day and a hype day. I like what the minor leagues have done in terms of going to the sixth day, , week basically, where they actually play for six days than they have a day off. So that then if you need to recoup because of rainouts, et cetera.

[00:29:26] But it gives you that, that's less travel for the players, more certainty in terms of the game is being played, you know, in one location, more hype in that location that that team is there for the week. Um, there's just more marketing that's able to be done because I find what's happening with baseball right now is it's too quick.

[00:29:44] You're jumping around from location to location. You never know where your team is, is going and people are busy. Their attention spans are shorter. They're not paying attention as much to things right as they used to. So, so that's one area that I think baseball can really 

[00:29:59] Jane Leavy: I agree. I agree with you [00:30:00] a thousand percent.

[00:30:01] And so does Davey Roberts, as you may have noticed in the book. 

[00:30:04] Mat Germain: Oh, yep. Exactly. I mean I really enjoyed that, uh, that book by the way. I think it's well written and I think it brings up a lot of valid questions, especially when you start talking about the, the Savannah Bananas and all this kind of stuff. I mean the um.

[00:30:20] The, the joy has to come back. And I'm on the same page as you when it comes to 10 year olds and below. I've seen you in another interview that you did, and you say that they should be able to go into the stadiums for free if they're under 10 years old. I think they should get to play the game for free.

[00:30:35] I think if you build that love of the game, starting at a young age, uh, and Major League Baseball can afford to do this and be the sport that stands up and says, you know what? Any kid should be able to allow, uh, to play baseball to a certain level and that's 10 years old. And then from then on you can continue, you know, as you can.

[00:30:54] Jane Leavy: Yeah. Well, I, I think you, you, you may, um, remember Johnny Gomes said to me at a [00:31:00] Savannah Bananas game where he was playing as a ringer, um, with a men in yellow, and he said, major League Baseball should buy Little League. Yeah. And staff it. And staff it with old players. And then he said, playing Dead's advocate, they say, oh, well these old guys would want too much money to do it.

[00:31:17] And he said, and then he took the other side and said, no, they would be happy to do it. 

[00:31:23] Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

[00:31:23] Jane Leavy: Um, you know, there's too many of them don't that, you know, are, are the stars, are the people who are in Cabo right now going to be willing to do that? I don't think so, but, um, there's a lot of, there's a lot of alumni who might well find some.

[00:31:42] Real meaning in, in, in helping do that. But I I, to your point, yes, I know that, um, afternoon games back in the day, uh, didn't sell out either. Uh, the difference is now you have television exposing it, you know, and panning those [00:32:00] picture, panning those stands. And it looks, even last night, which game was I watching?

[00:32:05] It looked like there were empty seats in one of the playoff games. And I'm going, huh? Am I, are they all, you know, standing on line to get a hotdog? There were a whole lot of empty seats. So, you know, can you imagine the, um, public relations value sometimes, you know, the best PR is doing something that's really right.

[00:32:30] Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm. That's 

[00:32:31] Jane Leavy: generous and forward thinking and different. So imagine when either Commissioner Manfred or myself gets up at a, at a press conference, we've called to say, you know what? We've watched what's going on. We've made the changes that we thought had to be made. And yes, they've made a a difference.

[00:32:55] The pitch clock actually was already on the books, which most people don't know, [00:33:00] but it's just never enforced. , And, that's obviously the most significant change 'cause it's changed the length and the pace of games. baseball's the only sport where guys who are participants could just call time and say, I think I'll wander down the third baseline for a while now, and center myself, get my thoughts in order.

[00:33:22] Mickey Mantle managed to get into the box without, you know, centering himself. He could barely stand up. He, he couldn't wander down the third base line. It's, it's to the point where they've made the changes they could make. But what the bananas have done as exposed essential problem, um, that these rules didn't change.

[00:33:45] And that is if fans feel alienated, um, they don't feel really that they matter. I'm, I'm thinking of a couple of years ago and my blessed Yankees in the, in a, in a, um, playoff [00:34:00] game that was, you know, delayed by rain. Let people stand there for, I think four hours without anybody telling them. What, whether it was gonna be played or what to do or offering them free food, you know, no, just go spend money on beer.

[00:34:15] Right. Overly expensive beer. And then, you know, uh, hours later said, oh, by the way, we're really sorry, but you know, we're gonna have to cancel this. Well, yeah, they, you know, they've built a system where weather has to be an, an issue. Right. Um, you know, there are gonna be those kinds of days in, in October and, and God, now November, , you know, when there's frost on the ground, someday I'm gonna just like, lose it.

[00:34:41] , So anyway, back to my fantasy, uh, of a, of a press conference. We've heard you, we've learned from the bananas. We see what they're doing Right. That we lost. So, thank you very much, Jesse Cole. You know, we're not gonna do everything [00:35:00] Jesse Cole does. We're not gonna have people in the outfield doing, you know, uh, practiced catches of, of fly balls in center field.

[00:35:10] Um, we're not gonna have fans, uh, catching balls and counting them as outs, because that really would sully the game in some profound way. , But we're gonna look for other ways Yeah. For fans to be involved. And so to prove , our, our mettle here and our bona fides days. We're gonna say any kid age 10 and under, brought by an adult of a, of an, of a non, um, inebriated sort.

[00:35:40] Can get in free, , fill up that edition. That is an awesome addition. Yeah, yeah. So, um, it's, why not? 

[00:35:52] Mat Germain: Mm-hmm. 

[00:35:53] Jane Leavy: If I had a friend of mine, , I was , on a Zoom with him last night, , za, a SABR Zoom, [00:36:00] Michael Halpert, who is a wonderful guy and an economist, um, uh, at the University of Wisconsin Lacrosse.

[00:36:08] So I said to him, is this affordable? Am I, am I, you know, am I blowing smoke? And he goes, you know, yeah. So he goes to the, he takes the Cubs menu from 2023, you know, I'm gonna have him update it, uh, to show that it still makes sense. Um, if you could bought a kid, a small kid size hot dog, and a kid Coke and, and a, and a cotton candy, and bought a kid, a small team cap, that it would've cost the Cubs all of $4 million in 2023.

[00:36:43] Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:44] Jane Leavy: Now I am a respecter of that number. Somebody wanna gimme $4 million, I'd be very happy. I don't personally have that lying around anywhere, but the 30 owners of of Major League baseball teams, [00:37:00] no matter how broke they claim to be, that's chu change for them. Yes. If they can afford it, they'd find a way to write it off what?

[00:37:09] Whatever. And it, remember it's the same year that they, that the Cubs paid Jason Hayward $21 million to play for the Dodgers. Mm-hmm. So don't tell me it can't be done. 

[00:37:23] Mat Germain: Yeah. It, it, to me it would be the, uh, a small start in a right direction. And you're right in that, you know, we were talking about earlier before you came on about batting practice.

[00:37:33] Like they don't even let the people in to watch batting practice or give them access to the players more freely. Or, you know, unless you're able to go to spring training, you don't get, which is a, a special ex experience that should be more promoted to be honest. And as a, as an event, uh, that they promote and, and kind of give people more access to some way, somehow you're talking about kids, send them down to spring training, make that the experience that you send them on for summer camps and all this kind of [00:38:00] stuff.

[00:38:00] Um, but. Yeah, I think there's a lot of connections that are made at a young age. Baseball has always been a family sport, more so than all of the other ones. , I can remember going to baseball games and we would bring a cooler full of food. You're not allowed to do that anymore, but we would be literally have sandwiches and hot dogs in there and drinks and, and you wouldn't even have to pay more than six bucks to get a family of six in the door.

[00:38:25] So, um, that's the access that they need. So when you're looking at the attendances, that's the other thing I would say. Each person that's in attendance now is paying double what they were in 2001 for concessions, for parking, for all of the extra stuff that they charge you for Now, 

[00:38:42] Jane Leavy: oops. There's Bette.

[00:38:43] There's Bette, the dog who's, um, as you know, a character in the book and she's barking because the, oh boy, does she need to go out? Um, you have, gimme one second. Jake really needs to go out. [00:39:00] Sorry. Um, it happens, it happens. , You know, of course everything in, in AmErika and life costs double or triple what it did in 2001.

[00:39:12] So I, you know, I, I'm not enough of a numbers person to know exactly what the increase is, but, um, you know, the fact of the matter is people have the impression, um, and they come by it honestly, that everything is for sale. In, in league baseball. Um, the back of the mound is now a, is now a, is a signage, right?

[00:39:38] You project an advertisement when they had, uh, a deal with a company called Roman, now known as roe. It, I believe it's expired. It was the, um, you know, uh, an MLB official supplier of male health aids. It's like, like, what is it doing there? Please [00:40:00] God. You know? Um, and 

[00:40:02] Mark Corbett: I, I like the waste management ads. 

[00:40:05] Jane Leavy: Oh yeah.

[00:40:07] Um, you know, and now your bicep is for sale. 

[00:40:11] Mark Corbett: That's it. 

[00:40:12] Jane Leavy: Yeah. And in the playoffs, you, you know, the Strauss name on the, on the batting helmets is for sale. The flaps above your ear, below your ears are for sale. And it, so, you know, to the extent that, that, that, that is negotiable. Could there be other options?

[00:40:31] Could they have a section where, you know, if picnic tables where say you can come in, you can sit at these picnic tables and bring your, your cooler. You know, I understand why it can't be throughout the ballpark the way maybe it was in 1925, um, you know, where you could bring your own home brew to the ballpark.

[00:40:52] I get that. But what about making a section out there? All the sections that they make out there now, what Janet Marie Smith [00:41:00] calls the outfield experiences, you know, are just places to make more money to have to have a party. Yeah. People don't look at baseball the same way. They don't sit for nine innings and wait for the beer guy to come, you know, they go to the beer guy.

[00:41:15] , But not every part of the ballpark has to be beer guy territory. No, 

[00:41:20] Mark Corbett: no. 

[00:41:21] Jane Leavy: It just requires a willingness to say, okay, we're really gonna do something different. That's the lesson of Jesse Cole, that they need to learn. They need to be, um, have less hubris about it. Mm-hmm.

[00:41:36] And say, yeah, he's really shown us something. Yeah. Yeah. As opposed to being defensive. You know, they have incredible staffs that do research for them. They know what age people become baseball fans and why they know that baseball fans more than you know, football or basketball fans are made when ki when kids are really [00:42:00] young.

[00:42:00] So. When they can be a captive audience, right? 

[00:42:04] Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

[00:42:05] Jane Leavy: Um, so why not take advantage of that? 

[00:42:08] Mat Germain: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:09] Jane Leavy: Uh, because they're lo they're, they're losing somebody. I was laughing, I was talking to, I did an interview this morning with Tony Kornheiser, you know, pardon the interruption. And I was saying something about this and I said, well, you know, Mr.

[00:42:22] Tony, we're getting old. He goes getting, um, so it's, uh, uh, yeah. So I've been told in the course of doing this research that I'm dying. Alright, fine. Thank you very much. But metaphorically, the generation, I would include you in that generation, um, that has supported baseball fervently through all these decades.

[00:42:47] It is dying that generation. Yep. And it does need to be replenished. Mm-hmm. Because even though they, since the new rules went into effect, and I'm not sneering at this, I'm not saying [00:43:00] it's insignificant. I believe the increase this year was 2%. And, and, um, on top of the first year, it was 10 point something.

[00:43:09] Then the year after, it was one point something. It was, it was close to 12. You know, so it adds up to close to 12. Now, since they put the new rules in, that's not nothing. I'm not saying that's nothing, but it's not, it's not enough. It doesn't address the underlying problem. 

[00:43:27] Mark Corbett: Jane, one thing you talked about is fan engagement and also about youth.

[00:43:32] And a couple of things I remember is one point you're talking about the, the attention span for just keeps getting shorter and tighter and tighter and tighter. And to be able to keep a youngster's attention and involvement in a game that a play evolves and a bat evolves, you know, and what happens to be able to do that?

[00:43:52] And you gotta stop me at someplace 'cause you've got so much in here. I, I like the, um, [00:44:00] I like one of the ways you look at addressing that by trying to incorporate what youth that's involved with. You have, what is it called? The bot you and it's called Beat the Bot. And I am bot 

[00:44:09] Jane Leavy: so grateful that you asked about it because, you know, I I, I have been doing a lot of podcasts.

[00:44:18] , The world of publishing and promotion changed a lot, um, between the time I published the Babe Ruth book, which was 2018. And now, because I seem to take a long time to do anything, so, okay. Um, but clearly. To sit and think we're gonna get kids to sit there and keep score. No, not happening. I mean, get, get a life.

[00:44:42] Go and watch what kids do. Mm-hmm. And so my, I went to, um, a woman who I revere now and has become a friend. Her name is Peko Hosoi or I'm probably mispronouncing that Hosoi. I think it's, yeah. Um, she's an, uh, a professor of, of, [00:45:00] of everything I don't understand in the world at MIT, you know, engineering and blah, blah, blah, whatever.

[00:45:06] And she is one of the people who was drawn to baseball as a kid because of the numbers. She, I mean, that's her language and she loves it. And she is the co-founder of the, , MIT Sports Analytics, , lab, which is associated with the program and is a teaching, , tool. , But it's also a business that has, does work all the time.

[00:45:31] It has contracts with FIFA to help develop wearables 

[00:45:36] Mark Corbett: Wow. 

[00:45:36] Jane Leavy: And better tracking devices in wearables. , And she was on the committee that study the ball and why it seemed to be uneven and wasn't really juiced in 2017, 2018, you know, when the spate of home runs took over. Um, so I said to Peko, can you devise a handheld [00:46:00] game?

[00:46:01] , To be played either on an iPad or a phone. With, that you could take to a ballpark and only play at the ballpark, a game where kids could interact with what's going on in the field, you know, um, beneath, below, whatever beside them, um, so that they can speak to the game and have the game speak to them in the language that they know.

[00:46:28] So she and her students took it upon themselves as a project one summer to create a game for me, and we tested it at the Cape Cod League, , because I'm, um, Bette, the dog, who may be back shortly, , from her ablutions, um, , is a, is a mascot for the Orleans Firebirds. , And, , I go to those games as often as I can.

[00:46:50] I have a house in Truro, Massachusetts in the ballpark, which is, it's, it's really a park. It was a park. It was created as a park in 1913 when [00:47:00] the land was, uh, donated. And it's settled in a natural berm, um, you know, in hollow with a natural berm. And that's where you sit to watch the games. And it's, it's an incredibly good field because now Major League Baseball donates money to each of the franchises to keep the field, you know, up to the standards that they need in order to, uh.

[00:47:21] Get the analytics and the tracking data on the players to see whether they wanna draft them. But anyway, um, so we, she, we first discussed doing a, a game where you would read a QR code on a player's, a patch on a player's shoulder. I mean, if you can put, you know, Montefiore Hospital on, on somebody's bicep, you can, you can do the other.

[00:47:47] Um, and it's not, it's the technology, it's doable. Mm-hmm. It's just, it was a much more complicated enterprise than putting together the game and the algorithm that they created, which was simply a, a [00:48:00] game in which a kid, and it was geared towards kids. It could be scaled up, it could be scaled down, but it geared to kids to be able to say, can I predict better than the algorithm?

[00:48:11] What's going to happen next? Oh, 

[00:48:14] Mark Corbett: and, 

[00:48:14] Jane Leavy: um, and the, the choices were pretty simple, right? But nonetheless, it was interactive. So because it was play, because we did this on a Friday and the traffic coming out to Cape Cod and Route six on Friday afternoons in the summer is just abysmal. It was touch and go, whether they would get there on, the students would get there on time and be able to set up.

[00:48:39] There was one announcement that was made by the, you know, public address announcer. Um, and, you know, otherwise no warning to the crowd that, you know, this was coming and we had 80 kids sign up, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so little kids running around saying to their mom, [00:49:00] mom, I need your phone. I need your phone. I gotta beat the bot.

[00:49:04] I gotta beat the bot. And you know, Peko told me about one little guy, quite, quite young, maybe four or five, something like that. We said, can we play now? Can I play the bot now? And she's showing him the sc uh, the scoreboard out in, uh, deep left field. And she's saying, can you see that number right? There you go, the one through nine.

[00:49:25] Can you see that? And he goes, yeah. And she says, what is it? What number are we at now? Oh, we're at two. She said, yes, and we're not gonna play until we get to the five. Right. Uh, because we're doing the fifth and sixth inning and Right. Um. You know, he goes, oh, I have to wait and yes, you have to wait. Um, they had, she had other kids coming up to her and saying, is froggy pants an okay password in baseball?

[00:49:54] You know, yes, froggy pants is an okay password. We had kids [00:50:00] who, whose parents told us later would've been itching to leave, begging to leave, saying, I'm not going until I beat the bot. Mm-hmm. And they stayed and the game worked. Um, and as a trial run, we were thrilled. We were just beyond thrilled that, that, that, that the whole thing worked at all.

[00:50:24] And then beyond that, that it illustrated, you know, what can be done to engage kids and, um, at, at an age where they need to be. And in a way they know that, in a way that they have to be, oh, there's a Roman ad on television right now for, well, you can, you can guess what it's an ad for. It's not a little blue pill.

[00:50:50] It's now a little red pill. Mm oh. Called 

[00:50:54] Mat Germain: sparks. I've always thought that, that, you know, with what you're talking about right there, you have [00:51:00] baseball savant throwing out a whole bunch of data, a whole bunch of information. If you hook them up with Nickelodeon and you have the meta glasses also involved where you can have things actually display on your glasses and actually, or iPads or whatever you want, 

[00:51:15] Jane Leavy: you try getting those through a scanner.

[00:51:17] Mat Germain: Yeah, but I, I remember as a kid playing QB one for football and that's exactly the same kind of game as what you're Tom about. You had to predict what play was coming up, you know, what the result was going to be. You got points and then you had the leaderboard. You know, you have a whole bunch of different ways of doing it.

[00:51:33] You could have the leaderboards by age group and then put them on the scoreboard. You know, there's a lot of things that would actually, they 

[00:51:39] Jane Leavy: could rent, then they could rent the equipment there. So you didn't have to, you know, bring it or own it because be too expensive and you could do it for free. How about that?

[00:51:48] Any kid who wants to play, it'd be an app, to be 

[00:51:50] Mat Germain: honest. Like, everything's 

[00:51:51] Jane Leavy: a app now. So, no. Then that's what they created, you know? Um, and, you know, I'm, I just wanna say in case there's [00:52:00] any businessman listening who wants to buy in and give this a better trial, we're, we're, we're willing, um, because, you know, we have to get over some illusions and one of them is that kids are gonna come back to this game, um, the way they did in the past.

[00:52:22] . In a world where it was safe to walk to the ballpark from home, you know, um, it, it, it's just not gonna happen. 

[00:52:30] Mat Germain: I do wanna talk about one aspect, though. I think that, that it gets missed a lot of times, and I've noticed this recently, I've really focused in on it. It's the broadcasters, right? In today's world, Vince Scully wouldn't exist.

[00:52:42] He would never get that shot because pro players coming back to the game would be the broadcast team. I watched Alex Rodriguez, Derek Jeter, and David Ortiz all doing the broadcasting before playoff game. Is that really who I wanna watch? And, and you know, the, the [00:53:00] promotion of the game and the talking about the game.

[00:53:02] I know the nationals, uh, broadcaster's retiring this year and his whole frustration with not being able to call, uh, playoff games because it was gonna be done by somebody that's national, that has no ties to the game. You know, there's a, there's a lack of feeling behind it when you're listening to the broadcast sometimes.

[00:53:19] And the lack of connection with the players, with the team, with how things are done. And, and that includes not having a broadcast team that is aimed at kids. That's also a separate, you know, that's a 

[00:53:31] Jane Leavy: brilliant idea. 

[00:53:32] Mat Germain: Yeah. You could have two different broadcasts going on at the same time. One, well they 

[00:53:35] Jane Leavy: already do.

[00:53:36] They have a different language. Yeah. Right. Broadcast and they have the gambling broadcast. So why not have a kid's broadcast, you know? Um, you know, that would be. Informative and explanatory. Um, as well as, you know, teach them. You know, one of the things I said is have computer stations throughout the ballpark.[00:54:00] 

[00:54:00] Um, where, you know, if we have a game like this where kids can learn stuff, where they can go and find out what, what they wanna find out about their favorite player, they can send them email, you know, um, God hope, God knows. I'd hoped that some of them would be decent enough to reply and, and understand the value in nurturing a new generation of fans.

[00:54:23] But there's a zillion things you can do. I'm not smart enough to know how many, because the technology is awesome. The technology, you know, it's, it's to a, a word person who doesn't understand or know how to make. I can't, I can't get my computer to have my mail show up on, you know, every day the reliably the same way.

[00:54:46] But there are people who do, you know, they know. , And I really think it's, um, you know, it's a, it's a question of willingness, not of. And a recognition that it's necessary. [00:55:00] Mm-hmm. Rather than it's, uh, oh. Ryan McMahon just made another unbelievable play at third base. I just, but it's two one. The Yankees are losing.

[00:55:10] Yep. Um, and thank you. I just thought I'd put that in there. Well, you wanna explain to people why I care, or do you want, you wanna do it or do you want me to do it? 

[00:55:20] Mark Corbett: I want you to do it. 

[00:55:22] Jane Leavy: Okay. Um, my grandmother, Celia Zelda Fellbaum, my mother's mother lived, um, and I'm, I'm not, you know, being hyperbolic here.

[00:55:34] Uh, one very long, loud foul ball from, uh, home plate at the real old first Yankee Stadium. And, um, I could lean out the window on, it was side streets, you know, sound carries In New York, it bounces off. Mm-hmm. Um, the tenement buildings, the apartment buildings, it's just like on the, uh, in the, um, [00:56:00] uh, in November when you have the, um.

[00:56:03] Uh, Macy's Day Parade. It is actually the Thanksgiving Day parade, but I call it the new people in New York. Call it the Macy Day parade. You know, the wind comes across those side streets from the Hudson and you know, the balloons get buffeted. Well, you know, that's the grid effect in New York, both of sound and wind.

[00:56:23] And, um, so from my grandmother's parlor, I could hear Bob Shepherd. I could hear, I could not necessarily make out all the syllables, but you know, the intonation and the, um, oh, the, just the won wonderful timber of his voice. Um, I could hear thwacks. I could hear roars go up and, you know, to a little kid, my imagination was such that, you know, I could project myself onto that field or into that ballpark.

[00:56:58] I'm like, what [00:57:00] happened? What happened? How come? What's making them roar? Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, it was, it was, it was great. I, but I was so young, I was like four and five. And so my sense of geography wasn't entirely perfect. I mean, her, her apartment actually faced a way from the stadium, but there were these side windows, uh, that, you know, on, on hundred 57th Street.

[00:57:25] So, um, and you know, if you look down the street, that's where, you know, that's where it was. 

[00:57:30] Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

[00:57:30] Jane Leavy: Um, so my devotion to the Yankees, , hardened into, , inevitable, , after she died. , And what did I have left? There was a connection to her. , I had the New York Yankees and so,, so she would take me there.

[00:57:47] She was, you know, my family is Jewish. Not particularly practicing what, um, Al Rosen used to call revolving door Jews, which is not, not a [00:58:00] really nice way thing to say, but it's really true. There are people who worship only, uh, at the high holidays. Chaz just made another error. Paul Goldschmidt made it error at first now, so there's, you know, one outman on first and, and third, um, I'm just gonna narrate, oh, he really booted that badly.

[00:58:20] Mat Germain: Oh cha. Oh, jazz. Passion for the Yankees is as deep as it gets, is what you're getting to essentially is that there's no, there's no, uh, inklings ever to, to leave the Yankee fandom. And, uh, and 

[00:58:33] Jane Leavy: nobody should ever question anybody's fandom because it's not logical. 

[00:58:38] Mark Corbett: No, it isn't. I, it, it 

[00:58:39] Jane Leavy: is not, , if you go back far enough in anybody's childhood story of why they're, attached to a team, it, it's something very personal.

[00:58:50] Something happened or someone happened and everything that's ha happened, you know, since I was a kid, um, has [00:59:00] made those attachments more difficult. Mm-hmm. Because of free agency. It was a natural consequence of free agency that teams don't stay together. I was talking about how ideas that I had for books at one point, I wanted to do the core four, you know, the last group of guys that really grew up and grew old in their careers together.

[00:59:21] Uh, that's the Yankees Core four. Thank you. Um, but try dealing with four agents. No, no, that wasn't happening. Um, so my grandmother went to synagogue on the high holidays and she actually was more religious practicing than, , my nuclear family was. , And we went, , to services at the Concourse Plaza Hotel, which is that big hulking building.

[00:59:48] There's the, on the right, if you're looking up 161st street, there's the Bronx County County Courthouse, which they now light up. When I was there the other day, it was all lit up. And then [01:00:00] on the left side of 160 first Street, uh, was this grand hotel where every swanky bar mitzvah that ever took place in the Bronx, uh, where the Yankees welcome home lunches, um, you know, an election.

[01:00:15] John F. Kennedy went there, in 1960 when he was campaigning for president, or I guess 59 60. Yeah. , So it has a beautiful ballroom with big tall brocade. , You can't call them curtains, you know, they were, they were drapes that draped, , this balcony, , these big tall, , rounded balcony windows.

[01:00:37] And, , my grandmother, , I like to say, , loved me more than she loved God. And so, when. Uh, the shofar, , the Rams horn that plays, um, at the beginning of the Jewish New Year would would sound, which is always a, a happy thing. This is, that's a happy holiday. Um, [01:01:00] I'd be wrapped up in the brocade drapes listening to the ballgame.

[01:01:03] It didn't always, you know, those, the Jewish holidays don't come on the, um, the, our calendar, it's a Jewish calendar, so it's not the same time every year. It's not the same date. Um, so whether there was a World Series in progress or not was variable, but I could see in that opening on the subway platform, the, , , IRT subway platform, , for a second you could see into the ballpark.

[01:01:33] And again, the fact that it was, made it accessible,, what's going on in there? How come I'm not in there? What if I was there, would the result change if I was there? If I was there, it would be different 'cause you know, you're young enough that you think you matter that much to affect outcomes.

[01:01:53] , And then she took me downtown on not the IRT, but the below ground IND [01:02:00] line to, um. Buy me a, a, a baseball glove, my first baseball glove at Sax fifth Avenue. Now, why in God's n God's name did she think there would be a baseball glove at, you know, this, the, the po Well then the Pist, um, department store in New York, facing Rockefeller Center, she didn't, she didn't have any idea where they would sell a, a baseball glove.

[01:02:28] She just knew that she wanted the best of everything for me, and therefore you had to go to the best store and God bless it. Um, last that, there it was, it was a beginning of opening of the season, and so there was a mannequin and a Yankee jersey with a, with a glove on her hand. And she goes up to the, one of the salesmen, I think he was in the fragrance department and says, I'll have that for my granddaughter.

[01:02:57] And he goes, Madam, it's, that's not for [01:03:00] sale. And she goes, I'll have that for my granddaughter. And, , so I took Sammy Esposito home with me that day and, um, everywhere else, including the synagogue, , my mother sadly threw the glove out. . Along with the baseball cards and everything else. , And a couple of years back, a really good friend of mine went and found one for me, exactly the same model, and it is the worst glove and no, no pocket, uh, whatsoever.

[01:03:31] Um, and, um, it was just, it was magical. It's just magical. Like, so I went back to Sax fifth Avenue a couple of weeks ago when I was in New York and took a picture of me standing. I mean, I remember exactly where the mannequin was standing, right by the front door, first glass panel. , And it was, Sammy and me.

[01:03:51] In fact, when I was at the Washington Post and we didn't have a baseball team and you had to figure out something to write on opening day, [01:04:00] it often became my task to find a baseball story to write in Washington, the nation's capital without cap, without a team. And so one year I decided I would go find Sammy Esposito.

[01:04:14] And, um, I found him at North Carolina State where he was assistant basketball coach and a, and, and the assistant, oh, no. Okay. 

[01:04:26] Mat Germain: Oh, I must, I must, uh, 

[01:04:27] Jane Leavy: jazz is j that's, they've just scored two runs. Okay. One. 

[01:04:34] Mat Germain: You just gave me an idea though, with the baseball glove, because I still have my first baseball glove that I, that I got from

[01:04:40] playing my first team. Right. And then I kept it, and my daughters used it when I was teaching them how to catch, et cetera. But what, what have you had like in terms of, of the kids that were talking about giving them access to baseball for free before the age of 10? If, if you had like an Easter egg hunt, but it's a, it's for baseball gloves instead, and you have it [01:05:00] around the stadiums or around the baseball fields, wherever they play, and you have it as, you know, you're also providing 'em the gear because not everybody can afford a baseball glove in a lot of areas.

[01:05:08] They don't, they don't have access to the stores or whatever. It could be any number of reasons that they don't have a glove. But to me, that's the one thing you need in the sport. You can wear, you wear any shoes you want. The only essential is well, a ball, A ball and a right. And, and they could each one of them into the other.

[01:05:28] But yeah, that's a really, it's particularly 

[01:05:29] Jane Leavy: good. It's a particularly good idea. Specifically Janet Marie was the person who pointed this out to me. Mm-hmm. You know, the, the, um, netting that has been installed to, to protect against, uh, balls going into the stands and hitting people has cut down on that interaction.

[01:05:47] Um. Uh, two, there's very few places that you can actually catch a baseball anymore. Yeah. In, in it, except in the outfield where there are outfield experiences. Um, as she liked [01:06:00] to, as she was just horrified when she found out that was a name. Now Yeah. I wanna have an outfield experience. Can you build me a ballpark with an outfield experience?

[01:06:12] Mark Corbett: I tell you what, I want to thank you for the vivid color you brought in your book. I felt like I was sitting there in that dugout with you and Miss Sue and Coach Nick, and looking out across the field and seeing the berm with all the blankets laid out there, that kaleidoscope of 'em out there. You, you, you brought me into that moment and I, I said, dang on.

[01:06:36] I mean, it, it, that was, that was important to me. And coming back to some of, with the player interaction, you talked about some of that earlier. Somebody came from Jesse Cole about having people going into the stands. Mm-hmm. Now the Trop was still there. And when we still had Randy Arozarena, we had a place called Randyland and we had a section, I dunno if you ever saw any of that, [01:07:00] Jane, but, uh, yeah.

[01:07:01] And well, when Randy was traded to the Mariners. Right. He took his last day a after he was, the deal was done and he sat in Randyland with the fans. And that's the sort of thing, it's like, damn, that's, that's the way baseball should be. There should be those type of moments. There should be the sort of things where they're there, they're part of the crowd, they're engaged.

[01:07:26] And in the book you point out how many people are on a 60 day IL and are sitting at home not making, you know, getting paid and not doing anything, but couldn't they be out there being the ambassador in the stands, being out in, in front of the kids doing different activities. And you've, you've got such, so much great stuff that you, at the end, you're talking with Ms.

[01:07:49] Sue, you're talking with Dave Roberts and, and the others. And I'm like, yes, bring this together. I'm ready. Let's have Jane as our commissioner right [01:08:00] now. Let's, let's enact this right now. Let's go team. 

[01:08:03] Jane Leavy: You know what, I, I've been astonished by how many, um, baseball guys, and, you know, I mean, I, I spent my entire childhood wanting to be a baseball man because that was the highest compliment anybody could pay anyone.

[01:08:20] Oh, he's a baseball man. Um, I was surprised at how many baseball men, um, actually agreed with me. With, with a lot of things. I mean, you know, Rob Manford didn't create this problem all by himself. It took decades of inaction and inattention to allow these things to come to the point that they have. It was about not being proactive about.

[01:08:48] I mean, they needed, they need to hire an MLB visionary and make that a new, a new vice president of being a visionary. Tell us what's gonna happen before it happens so we can start [01:09:00] planning for it. , And, some of the things you don't have to have 30 owners agree on. Yeah. , There are things that they could do that they could just say, this is the way it's gonna be.

[01:09:13] Right. And, , I'm sure it would have to be a negotiation with the union on who takes batting practice first or last. Yeah. But if you do what you're suggesting, which is have Mondays off, , this is a sequence, a chain, a chain reaction. If they're gonna add more franchises, which they seem determined to do.

[01:09:37] Which will dilute the talent even more and make travel even crazier. Um, because I don't see that Rob Manfred's going to be able to get the conferences that he, you know, geographical conferences that will allow small market teams to play small against small market teams and, you know, feast off each other all summer and then get to [01:10:00] the playoffs and have to face the Dodgers.

[01:10:02] Yay. I don't see how that works. If they add to that, if they add another layer to the playoffs, which clearly they wanted to do and tried to do when they did the 22 collective bargaining agreement they're gonna have to cut the season back. You can't add another layer of playoff games without starting earlier, which you can't do 'cause of weather or ending later, which you can't do because of weather.

[01:10:29] , And god forbid they decide,, that all important games at the end of the season have to be played under a dome That's a neutral site. That would really not go over well with me. That might be my out, , you know, and Dave Roberts said, give us Mondays off. Mm-hmm. You know, let us reset the pitching staff.

[01:10:48] Yeah. Give everybody a day to collect themselves. Get where they gotta go, breathe. ball players use the word and say it's a grind, they're not kidding. . You try living [01:11:00] like that, going back and forth across the country, even if you have charters, , flying right now is not exactly a, a piece of cake for anybody, even them.

[01:11:11] So, um, I agree with you. I'm gonna, in the next, when I rewrite this, I'm putting in the minor league schedule. Makes much more sense. , There are ways to do this and I think the chief one that, , I think needs to be enacted is, , adding to the pitching staff. Yeah. You're, you know, how many, uh, you know, arms, pitching arms do you wanna destroy before you realize, you know, that you have to do something radical here?

[01:11:41] Mat Germain: Yeah. I have a, I have a preconceived notion that just from experience and, and what I've seen and watched, I, I think they just don't wanna pay them, to be honest. They're seeing it as a protecting themselves from having to pay pi pitchers down the road. 'cause they know they can just turn the leaf, go to a new pitcher and move on.

[01:11:57] , Meanwhile the person's destroyed. Their body doesn't [01:12:00] get the amount that, and a long career that they should have had. , I think that's. A self feeding prophecy as well. 'cause the player is in, you know, enabling it by acting in that way. But if he doesn't, he doesn't get the roster spot. So it's a catch 22.

[01:12:14] Jane Leavy: , Tom Glavin suspects, a conspiracy theory like that. He, he thought that was why, starting pitchers weren't getting the big money and big free agent deals. And now some of them are clearly, , but, it's an under it, it requires an understanding about how integral, , that pitcher batter or pitcher ace versus ace confrontation is to the experience of the game.

[01:12:42] Mark Corbett: Right. 

[01:12:42] Jane Leavy: And, , I think the change in the way starting pitching is used or, and or abused, um, is the single most, um, destructive change both to the health of the pitchers and their arms, but also to the health of the game. [01:13:00] Because baseball is a game that's told stories and has stories to tell, but you can't tell the same stories anymore because the same things don't happen.

[01:13:13] Yeah. And , every time a manager takes a guy out who's throwing a no-hitter, or, or a perfect game. You are short circuiting, , reasons to come to the ballpark, 

[01:13:25] Mark Corbett: right? 

[01:13:25] Jane Leavy: We had this discussion unendingly with , with Dave Roberts about taking Kershaw out of his perfect game in April, 2022.

[01:13:35] , Yes, there were concerns. Yes, it was cold. Yes, he was coming back from injuries, all those things. It wasn't a normal situation. But as AJ Ellis' catcher said, if ever there was gonna be a person that, for whom the norms don't apply, it's going to be Clayton Kershaw. 'cause he's Clayton Kershaw. And the next day, , Bill the [01:14:00] Spaceman Lee, who's become a buddy through all this, um, who still was, when I started this, was still pitching at, um, that field in Cape Cod, in senior league games.

[01:14:11] , He called me the next day day and he, he was like, shrieking. And he starts to cry. I said, Spaceman, why are you crying? And he says, 'cause he wasn't , given a chance to see how good he could be. Mm-hmm. And fans weren't given a chance to see how good the game can be.

[01:14:31] Mat Germain: Yeah, that's true.

[01:14:32] Jane Leavy: And that's what's undermining, in my view, in my view, that's what every decision.

[01:14:39] That's made. Is it? Well, if is it made for his health? Maybe it is. You know, so be it. But is it, it is never based on what is the most entertaining thing to do and with an eye towards that obligation. I mean, as AJ Ellis said, you know, that's our job. [01:15:00] That's what we're here for. And it's the reason they have the 1922 tax exemption because it's not supposed to be a business.

[01:15:10] It's supposed to be, an entertainment. So, you know, how about making some decisions based that at least factor that in? And I was saying this to Davey Robertson, I don't want to take credit. Uh, well, I'll get a chance to talk to him when this is all over. But, uh, in Baltimore and the next day he left, uh, Yamamoto and to come back, he had a no-hitter going against the Orioles, and he brought him out for the ninth inning to pitch to see if he could get the no-hitter.

[01:15:41] And what happens, Jason Holliday, son of Matt, brother of Ethan, , hits a wall scraper of a home run. There was no bringing it back. , So he lost the no-hitter and they lost the game. but it was a great moment for baseball. Yeah. 

[01:15:58] Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm. [01:16:00] 

[01:16:02] Mat Germain: It's funny because you do, you do like, bring all that in together in terms of the entertainment side of things.

[01:16:08] I kind of wanna push it to another slide that I think you've touched on, on a lot of your books, and that's the tie between, uh, the sport of baseball and culture in, in AmErika and in the world in general. Where do you think baseball's, what do you think baseball's role is going forward based on what we've seen baseball having in terms of an impact through the decades?

[01:16:32] Uh, most recently, 

[01:16:34] Jane Leavy: well call me pie eyed, but, um, I have thought this in 2012, um, I worked for a contract to write for, oh God, what's the name of the thing? That was the ESP Oh uh, Grantland grant. That was the, the online magazine style, you know, uh, for [01:17:00] sports writing. Right. And I did a piece on CTE and the woman, , who was at the forefront of, of investigating the brains of the football players who shoot themselves thoughtfully in such a way that, um, that their brains are preserved for science.

[01:17:17] Um, I think Dave Duerson was the guy, most recent guy at that point. And long and short of it is, you know. They're going to figure out how to detect and diagnose a chronic traumatic encephalophy. I used to be able to do it. I used to roll off my tongue, CTE. This brain disease again, you get from, having your head bashed in over and over and over again starting year 14, they're gonna be able to diagnose it in living people.

[01:17:51] And when they find out how many kids already have the beginnings of it 

[01:17:56] Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

[01:17:56] Jane Leavy: When drafted, do you think Mark Sanchez might [01:18:00] be somebody? I mean, I don't, you know, e every time now that some football player goes amuck, I think, okay. Is this another case of CTE? Because their brains are destroyed.

[01:18:11] They're, they're, they're, they're eaten by, and eaten away at, and they're, the anger and rage and acting out and all sorts of crazy stuff. Um, it, it's a terrible, terrible way to grow old and ultimately to talk to die. So I do not understand for the life of me why Major League baseball doesn't have a marketing plan.

[01:18:40] That includes saying to parents, bring your kids back to baseball. The game they're going to remember. Hmm. 

[01:18:49] Mat Germain: Oh my goodness. That's a t-shirt waiting to happen. 

[01:18:53] Jane Leavy: Yeah. 

[01:18:53] Mat Germain: For all the right reasons. 

[01:18:55] Jane Leavy: You know, it, it's not nice, but [01:19:00] it's true. 

[01:19:01] Mark Corbett: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[01:19:02] Jane Leavy: You know, um, baseball isn't gonna make, render your kid an idiot.

[01:19:06] You know, 

[01:19:08] Mat Germain: I, I've, I've interviewed, you know, dozens of players that played in the minors. I, I can remember at least a dozen of them that mentioned the choice they had to make, you know, from high school to college. And they decided on baseball because of the longevity of it, and that they thought they would have a more, uh, a better quality of life is the way they termed it.

[01:19:30] Uh, just, it 

[01:19:31] Jane Leavy: actually isn't that much difference in the, you know, I don't think these days in a number of years as average career length. Um, it's not as much in baseball as you might have thought of, but maybe it's all those relievers who are you know, those, the parade of big boys who come and throw a hundred miles an hour wreck their arms and disappear for the rest of eternity.

[01:19:52] Um, but long story short,, why don't they have somebody under the age of 30 marketing this sport? [01:20:00] 

[01:20:01] Mat Germain: You and I are on the same page. I it's one of my pet peeves. Yeah. Is the, the, I think again, like for a while they, they brought in Theo Epstein Epstein. They brought in a whole bunch of people to bring together new ideas and I think they, they had a good effort going forward, but honestly, I don't believe we have direct commissioner in place.

[01:20:19] When you have the commissioner literally calling it a piece of metal trophy, uh, you know, you just don't feel like your heart is in it at that point. So I think you do need somebody with a vision and passion at the top of the hill that says, you know, this is the direction we're going to take and we're going to, you know, focus in on a lot of youth, uh, initiatives to get this going.

[01:20:41] Um, so having a new commissioner like yourself in, in play for that would be perfect at that point, right? 

[01:20:48] Jane Leavy: And let's have a feminist day. You know, I'm tired, you know, you know, okay. You can't bring back ladies day 'cause that's not cool anymore. But how about feminists? Bring your daughter to the ballpark [01:21:00] day?

[01:21:00] How about having, you know, daycare? 

[01:21:04] I mean, you can't bring an infant to the ballpark and expect to be able to actually watch a game. So, you know, by the way, I don't know if you would like to see this. But Bette, the dog who is, is sitting here waiting for her treat. Can you see her? Oh, oh yes. Hi Bette.

[01:21:22] Nothing gets past her. Nothing. She has incredible mouth eye coordination.

[01:21:31] Mat Germain: That's awesome.

[01:21:32] Jane Leavy: Oh, I have to get her a treat in a minute. That's what I'm trying to say. I'll tell you. 

[01:21:37] I wanna come 

[01:21:37] Mark Corbett: back to you as the commissioner because looking at, trying to wrap everything you had talking about one thing Rob Manfred said and about Ray drove me nuts.

[01:21:48] One baseball, one MLB. But you as comm Commissioner, the thing that you offered, I kind of liked. 'cause you were talking from the ground up from Little League and you, you put things in place [01:22:00] as far as protecting the, these children, I mean young players as far as maybe what speeds they'd be throwing at. , You have something in place where coaches are taught how, they should be working with these young arms and certain behaviors that they need to, uh, display.

[01:22:17] And if they're not, they're gone. You know, I love that, 

[01:22:21] Jane Leavy: like the CTE and the way it is, the, um. Product of all the hits you've taken in your life, starting at, you know, a young age. 

[01:22:35] Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

[01:22:35] Jane Leavy: The damage to pitching arms starts very young. And, um, so there's no requirements in Little League or anywhere else that you have to be, um, trained to be a coach.

[01:22:52] Yeah, I mean, there's a guy at Driveline named Devin Morgan, who's actually, um, very good, [01:23:00] reasonable guy. He is, you know, no matter what people think of Driveline, he's, he's good. He publishes once a week. He publishes a, a, a, he has a Twitter feed on, you know, the, the worst thing that happened in Little League this week.

[01:23:13] There was a kid who was left in, I think it was not more than , two innings and maybe, I don't know, something like that to give up 22 runs. 

[01:23:25] Mark Corbett: Oh, it's like, 

[01:23:26] Jane Leavy: what? You know, I mean, I can look that up for you. I'm, I'm sitting on my phone.

[01:23:31] Oh my gosh, I can look it up. Yeah, 

[01:23:33] Mat Germain: I, I've heard a lot of of college coaches get called out for that as well. And now I think a lot of colleges do have systems in place where they have triggers, right? Where at a certain in, in, uh, pitch count, they, they pull them. 

[01:23:48] Jane Leavy: Um, well, yeah, I mean, there should be all of that.

[01:23:52] Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm. 

[01:23:52] Jane Leavy: All of that. And, you know, clearly baseball's decided as both an [01:24:00] economic thing and for whatever other reason to ratchet back the minor leagues, um, and rely on, um, colleges to basically be the development program, uh, the way it is in football. Mm-hmm. Um, that too has economic, deficits in terms of, small market teams who needed the bigger basket of players, um, to develop.

[01:24:28] So they needed the, you know, more than three affiliated teams to be able to do it. But, um, the, the fact is that everything is predicated on money. 

[01:24:41] Mark Corbett: Yeah. I 

[01:24:41] Jane Leavy: actually, you know, and it's, it's complicated because Okay, say a kid playing for your D level team get needs a Tommy Jones surgery. Right. Which is very likely.

[01:24:52] You don't really think he's ever going to be anything, but you need bodies and you're going to give him a chance. And now suddenly, you [01:25:00] have to, these medical bills. Last year, this was in MLBs, , report on shoulder injuries , , and elbow injuries. They paid a a billion dollars to people.

[01:25:11] To sit on the, , injured list. Yeah. A billion dollars in medical. You know, the, the medical costs ended up, that's a, the salary that cu of salary that wasn't, that was paid to people not playing. 

[01:25:24] Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

[01:25:25] Jane Leavy: Thirds of it were for pitching related injuries. , , and to their credit, and I, have no problem giving them credit for doing the right thing, um, to their credit.

[01:25:36] So they instituted just last month, or maybe it's this month, um, a limit on how many days and times and months that kids can be scouted in high school and in college.

[01:25:50] Um, because y you know, if there's a, if there's a tournament or a showcase, scouts will be there and if scouts will be there, the kids will [01:26:00] be there. Mm-hmm. That's just the way it is. And so they don't stop, they don't wrist their arms, they don't have anything else in their lives. 

[01:26:09] Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

[01:26:10] Jane Leavy: They don't play other sports.

[01:26:12] Um, you know, Buck Showalter said to me if I looked at a resume for a kid, um, a, you know, a a a combination of words that one shouldn't have to say out loud, but if I look at a, a kid and, and, and all he's ever done is play baseball, it's a red flag. 

[01:26:29] Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

[01:26:30] Jane Leavy: For both injuries and for the development of the kid and whether the kid's really gonna wanna play baseball and whether it's really up to him.

[01:26:37] You know, there's a, a system now of youth baseball, you know, with perfect game that claims to be a non-profit. I don't know how that's possible, but they claim to be a nonprofit which brings together the best talent in the country at huge, um, sporting complexes [01:27:00] all in Southern California sites, because that's where you can play all year.

[01:27:04] And it gives, um, coaches and scouts a chance to see the best kids in action. Yeah. Um, playing against each other, which you need to see. Whether you're a coach or you're a kid, you need to see who's better than you. Right. The problem is you've got, , 16 year olds aspiring to throw 95 miles an hour and you've got kids having preemptive Tommy John surgeries.

[01:27:30] Well, I'm gonna have to have it, uh, you know, so I might as well do it now. And thankfully you've got some. Really ethical doctors like Jeff Dugas, uh, in Birmingham, um, who created the Internal brace surgery, , he won't operate on kids of a certain age because their bones and their plates aren't all completely formed.

[01:27:52] , It's a huge deal. So that they limited this, that they announced they were gonna do this. That's a big deal. That's a really good [01:28:00] thing. Mm-hmm. Um, but again, it's gonna have to go further. They're gonna have to attack this whole system, , that has it with laissez-faire management, has been allowed to, , develop to the detriment of the kids and the sport.

[01:28:19] Yeah. 

[01:28:21] Mark Corbett: Wow. Yeah. 

[01:28:23] Jane Leavy: Devin Morgan is the guy at, at Driveline. He said, it's the fucking wild west out there. It's, 

[01:28:30] Mat Germain: I think the, the, the six day rotation. If you, if you set up that Monday off six days games afterwards in one location, that gives you the ability to say, okay, well now they've, they've already said you have to phase three batters.

[01:28:45] If you're a reliever, well, you could say that every one of those games has to be started by a different person so that the same starter can't start twice over that six game span and now would give them at least the rest to recuperate, even though they're gonna be a throw too [01:29:00] hard. More than likely in their start, at least then they're getting the chance for their body to actually recoup and in a, in high school.

[01:29:07] And then a lot of different things they use like, okay, your Saturday pitcher is this guy, your Sunday pitcher is this guy. There's a marketing aspect that can be thrown at it as well. Right? So there's a little bit of, of ability to do that on the starting pitching front and not just have the relief option, like what they've done recently, which I'm not exactly a big fan of.

[01:29:27] I think you should have the ability to flick on the switch and flick off the switch at will, but. I get the exchanges, you wanna limit those. But yeah, the velocity thing, I, I enjoy pitchers, I enjoy like the, the crafty people that have six, seven pitches. Yes. And you can tell the good athletes on the mound that field their position.

[01:29:45] Well, I think that comes from playing other sports, basketball, et cetera. So hopefully, , baseball does a better job of attracting complete athletes over time. The, the football aspect, I think the head injuries is a huge knock on [01:30:00] football for sure. I don't know how you get around that one for football, but for baseball, the, the, yeah, the injuries a billion dollars, like that means that you're not promoting your sport properly.

[01:30:11] 'cause a lot of your best talents aren't on the field. This year. We missed Gerritt Cole the entire year, you know, because he had that surgery and I, I can't say that he would've prevented it pitching a different way. Um, but, you know, he was using the T and then he was, um, throwing extremely hard the majority of his career.

[01:30:31] So it's not a surprise that he comes down with the injury, he does it and you're without him for an extra year, uh, out of his career. Whereas back in the day. That, you know, didn't happen very much. I still think that baseball should get away from asking the people who do the Tommy John surgeries for advice on the Tommy John surgery, 

[01:30:50] Mark Corbett: because I, 

[01:30:51] Mat Germain: I think there's, there's an incentive there to not give you all the information.

[01:30:56] Right. You mean, 

[01:30:56] Mark Corbett: you mean like finding a surgeon who sees surgery as the answer? [01:31:00] Yeah. I mean, you know, we, we know. So, yeah. Uh, 

[01:31:03] Jane Leavy: I'm not as, I'm not going there with you on that because do I think it's become an industry? Of course it has. Are there a lot of doctors making money off operating on, you know, is is 17 year olds who we're having it preemptively?

[01:31:19] Yes. But I,, then there's the Keith Meister who, , is now one of the top guys along with, um, the guy in California, , whose name I'm blocking on, , AHI, is that how you pronounce it, there was a big profile of him in the New Yorker, and I should have learned how to say his name by now.

[01:31:38] But Meister said, was asked a question,, well, what do we do about it? And he said, go play catch in the backyard. 

[01:31:46] Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm. 

[01:31:47] Jane Leavy: That's what you need to tell kids to do. Go play catch.

[01:31:51] And how about those fundamentals? Is this a good product to be selling? I don't think so. Yeah. [01:32:00] But, um, I'm old fashioned anyway, back to the pitching, stuff, , my idea is that they need more arms and there's this whole parade between, , the il, the major league club, you know, the AAA is crazy and, , and it's made for deception, and rife with it, so, you know, oh.

[01:32:20] And now he just being somebody. Okay. Um, so, uh, I'm, I'm glad you're with me. Like, otherwise I would be like sitting here hitting my head. Um, the, uh, uh, what I would do is take the 13 man pitching staff and use some of the money you're gonna save by not having to have so many Tommy John surgeries Yeah. To pay.

[01:32:49] Two or three additional pitchers, right? Mm-hmm. So , I listen to Dusty Baker and those guys talk about how hard it was just to find somebody who could lift their arm. 

[01:32:59] Mark Corbett: [01:33:00] Yeah. You know, 

[01:33:00] Jane Leavy: by, by July, you know, these guys are tapped out and they're, they're looking at each other's waiver wires with Oh, I can fix him.

[01:33:10] Yeah. Right? Right. And so this way you'd, you'd have every day 11 pitchers designated mm-hmm. To, to be active if you have only 11 pitchers the way it used to be before, you know, after it used to be nine, which people seem to function with. Okay. Um, if you have only 11, it is going to mean that you have to have people pitching more innings.

[01:33:39] Right. Um, and so it would nudge the sport back to, um, what people want to see. 

[01:33:47] Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm. 

[01:33:47] Jane Leavy: The evidence based on, you know, sh I'm not gonna say Cam's last game, um, before tonight where he, the shutout with [01:34:00] 12 strikeouts and no walks. What was notable about it was a, um, Aaron Boone sent him back out for the eighth inning and people were.

[01:34:10] Grateful. Mm-hmm. And I, I don't don't know whether it was Buster Olney or somebody else in the booth who said, you know, and there was an ovation and it wasn't just for the, what the kid had done, it was for what he was being allowed to do. There 

[01:34:25] Mark Corbett: you go. 

[01:34:25] Jane Leavy: There's a hunger for that kind of pitching performance.

[01:34:30] So you, you know, yesterday's starter, well, he, why should he be counted among year 11? You're not gonna use them. Put 'em on, put 'em on, put 'em on the taxi squad, take the two arms, attach to guys who are the most exhausted, put them out there, give them some time off, but they can throw on the side. 

[01:34:52] Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm. 

[01:34:53] Jane Leavy: Not Max Fried Heave, , for getting hot for a, an appearance and then not getting called into the game, [01:35:00] but throwing more often, which old guys say is the reason, one of the reasons they get hurt is that they don't condition their arms to throw more.

[01:35:09] Mat Germain: , 

[01:35:09] That's true. I agree. The way that, that pitchers kind of go about it. I mean, I, I can't even put myself in their mindset in terms of going through an entire season and, , your initial thing to want to do when your, your arm is hurting is to rest, and then you're resting to you is to not move it.

[01:35:30] And obviously, I think, who was it? The, the big guy from, uh, Texas, Nolan Ryan. Uh, he used to talk about that and how he was always throwing, he was like, even on days when he was sore, even on days when he was, Randy Johnson spoke about the same thing. I used to watch Doc Holliday. Oh, 

[01:35:47] Jane Leavy: text does too, right? 

[01:35:49] Mat Germain: Yeah. Uh, dog holiday.

[01:35:52] You know, we're going 

[01:35:52] Jane Leavy: to get Bette a treat. Okay? Yeah. 

[01:35:54] Mat Germain: Alrighty. 

[01:35:54] Jane Leavy: Sounds 

[01:35:55] Mat Germain: good. 

[01:35:55] Jane Leavy: All right. Keep talking. I'm listening. It's all [01:36:00] listening. Come on, Bette, let's go get you your treats. Let's go. 

[01:36:03] Mat Germain: What, what are her treats? Is it liver or? 

[01:36:07] Jane Leavy: No, it's, you know, I'm, I'm a really indulgent mom. I got her. Hold on. It's, you know, human grade beef jerky.

[01:36:17] Ooh, ooh. It smells horrible. Okay. 

[01:36:23] Mat Germain: I might steal some of that. That's awesome. 

[01:36:27] Jane Leavy: Yeah, it's, uh, let's see, full moon natural essential jerky tenders. Oh, that's awesome. Oh God. Smell is bad. Human grade dog treats. I haven't tried, I haven't. Um, ranch grown. 

[01:36:46] Mat Germain: I can see 

[01:36:47] Jane Leavy: the wagon. Cruel 

[01:36:50] Mark Corbett: dog treats. 

[01:36:52] Jane Leavy: I tried buying some others today.

[01:36:54] She went fat. She's too smart for that. Sorry, 

[01:36:59] Mark Corbett: mom. This [01:37:00] isn't it. 

[01:37:01] Jane Leavy: Okay, Bette, now you have to do, I mean, I could try to get a ball and get her Sit. Sit.

[01:37:11] Say Hi, Bette. Hello. Hey, Bette. How's it going, sweetie? Out with a tree here. She needs a haircut. She can, I don't know how she can see. She's a, 

[01:37:23] Mat Germain: I have a cockapoo. We have the same issue. There's always hair all over his eyes, 

[01:37:29] Jane Leavy: but she is, she is, she's much better than a husband.

[01:37:38] Mat Germain: Fully understood. 

[01:37:40] Jane Leavy: Um, 

[01:37:40] Mat Germain: I do have to ask you, what, what do you think the, uh, about the new Yankee stadium? Because I happen to have gone to both the old one or the older one. Not the oldest one, but the, the one just before this one and then the new one and, and I felt like 

[01:37:57] Yeah. I've been to Wrigley, I've been to [01:38:00] Fenway. You walk in there and you get a feeling and a sense of history, and there's something that goes with that, that I don't think can be replaced. And I'm a Montreal Canadians fan. The Forum had had the same thing. The Bell Center doesn't have it.

[01:38:14] So what did New York lose by, by deciding to go with the new stadium?

[01:38:25] Jane Leavy: Authenticity. 

[01:38:26] Mat Germain: That's exactly right. Yeah. 

[01:38:28] Jane Leavy: I think I, in a moment of utter disdain, refer to it as an oral food court. Yeah. , It's, um, pretentious. It's, overdone, you know, it's, uh, they had a problem over there, which was historical. And people, you know, some people understood it and knew what it was.

[01:38:50] , The reason the steel, , beams started to move and, there was that game, the famous game that had to, they had to shut down the ballpark because up the upper [01:39:00] left field, uh, grandstand, uh, some of those old beams were starting to go, eh, , the, the old Yankee Stadium was built on landfill. , That was, , excavated from where they, , dug the tunnels for the subways on the Grand Concourse, where the Concourse Plaza Hotel is, where my grandmother and I went to not pay attention to the Rabbi and, and listened to the game.

[01:39:25] and it swampland and it was Cromwell's Creek runs right through what? There's a reason it's called River Avenue. It's right beside the river. , The land that was bought by the, as it was from the Asters was, um, you know, uh, one point, it was a junk yard. It one point, it was a silent studio movie studio.

[01:39:46] , There was really nothing there, and it was not expensive. , And it was swampy. So, you know, I used to wonder why it was when you'd go in there in like May and it was warm [01:40:00] outside. It was always like a chill, and, and somehow it looked steamy, you know, there was water right below the field.

[01:40:09] It didn't get soggy out there, but it did. Uh, you know, the Yankee stadium field was famously uneven. Right. , , it was built uneven to begin with where that warning track that was sloped the way it had, they tried to imitate something like that in Texas at the be very beginning at the stadium before the stadium and at the, uh, Astros played in, uh, towels Hill, it was called.

[01:40:34] But,, the long and the short of it is, it'd be very hard to short that up. Right. Um, so that they moved is not my big objection. The wind dynamics are different 'cause you're north, you know, again, hundred 61st street winds blow it right up there. , It's different. It doesn't play the same way.

[01:40:57] Exactly. And [01:41:00] it is, , it's immense. The way the original one was intended to be immense and say, we are, the Yankees we're different. I looking at it on the television now, , it's pretentious with a gold lettering outside, and the carved into the facade, oh my god, you know, gimme a break.

[01:41:18] Um, it, it, um, not my cup of tea. Yeah. Not my cup of tea. I think they all the beautiful stadium these days. Right. Look at PNC in Pittsburgh. Look at Baltimore. You know, look at, look at, uh, Petco. There are beautiful ballparks being built. Yeah. Um, so 

[01:41:42] Mat Germain: it's, to me it's just more about the amenities, having some warmth to them, the, on the, the ambiance not being so stark in contrast and cold feeling essentially.

[01:41:52] Um, because like a lot of people feel like the modern styles are a little bit colder, whereas a lot of [01:42:00] stadiums that are warm and welcoming are a little bit more brining to be quite honest. Yes. There's a 

[01:42:06] Jane Leavy: lot of, there's a lot of generations of schmutz. 

[01:42:11] Mark Corbett: Right, 

[01:42:11] Jane Leavy: right. Exactly. Couldn't clean it all up. Aaron Judge just struck out.

[01:42:17] Oh man. Okay. One out in the, in the bottom of 

[01:42:19] Mat Germain: the, we're welcome distraction, Jane. This is what's going on right now. 

[01:42:24] Jane Leavy: God, this wasn't, this was a badly constructed roster. I agree. Yeah. And then the injuries, you know, you can say they were unpredictable, but there weren't unpredictable. You have to assume that at this point that some of your pitchers are gonna disappear with their arms and tatter.

[01:42:43] You can't just say, oh, I have enough. 

[01:42:46] Mat Germain: But who's gonna teach the Yankees fundamentals? Like in terms of like, let's say they bring in all these names, right? You have a, uh, an ex MVP in Cody Bellinger. You have Jazz Chisholm who's had a lot of success. You have Paul Goldschmidt who's won gold gloves. [01:43:00] You have like, the fundamentals should already be there.

[01:43:02] Like they're just, it's, it's, it's, it's not just the 

[01:43:05] Mark Corbett: Yankees. 

[01:43:06] Mat Germain: Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:43:08] Jane Leavy: It's, it's, and I think it comes from the fact that basically it evolved into primarily, um, a, an offensive game. 

[01:43:17] Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm. 

[01:43:18] Jane Leavy: You know, that's what's important. That's why, you know, all those years that they, before they got rid of the shift where they were putting, um, you know, clumsy outfielders at second base, 'cause people were gonna just hit the ball over them and to get it over the shift anyway, um, there is, oh, finally somebody got a Stanton got a hit.

[01:43:37] Let's just see if you're gonna pinch run for that sucker. And watching him try to motor around the bases is always interesting. Um, uh, you know. Roy Eisenhart who ran the A's for, um, his father-in-law, Wal Walter Hace ha, um, in the, uh, eighties, you know, [01:44:00] was saying, you know, to hell with the, with a, you know, home run competition, the All Star game, bring back the skills competition.

[01:44:07] Yes, 

[01:44:08] Mark Corbett: yes. Agreed. 

[01:44:09] Jane Leavy: Now that's not gonna happen either, but, um, or they could have both, but I mean, who starts a season without a third baseman? 

[01:44:17] Mat Germain: Yeah, I know. I, it's just there, there's a lot of issues, right? Like the a yeah, every team has questions when you start the season, but there's certain teams that should have very few and the Dodgers and Yankees to start, , are those , that should not have those kinds of questions pop up.

[01:44:36] Jane Leavy: Well the amount of money being spent, you know, how it's being allocated does not seem to, um, match up with what's needed, let's put it that way. 

[01:44:47] Mat Germain: Right. And that kind of brings me to my last point or my last question for you today. 'cause I know we've held you on for a long time. Well, I was late and I apologize, so Oh, 

[01:44:56] Mark Corbett: don't, don't even, don't even.

[01:44:57] Mat Germain: So in terms of the CBA coming up, how do you [01:45:00] see it playing out and, and what are, do you hope gets avoided most, uh, and not put in place through the CBA 

[01:45:09] Jane Leavy: Well? Two things. When Rob Manfred began this year by announcing to everybody, um, there's going to be a lockout guys. Um, and you need to expect that this is the new norm, that every time we renegotiate, every six years, you know, this is pretty much the way it's gonna go.

[01:45:32] And, um, and really that's not so bad because, you know, it's like using a 22 rather than a nuclear weapon. I just thought, this is the commissioner of baseball. 

[01:45:44] Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

[01:45:45] Jane Leavy: You know, how is that a way to promote the game you see, begin the season? You say, you know, we really want you to come back to baseball, but by the way, be, we want you to be loyal.

[01:45:58] We want you to buy [01:46:00] expensive seats. We want you to do all these things, but we're gonna, we're gonna screw you. Right? Yep. Because ultimately the last thing that matters is the fans. I was horrified. I mean, just absolutely horrified by that. , Maybe there was some purpose that I don't understand. I don't know.

[01:46:21] Warning people, , clearly the owners, I mean, I've been hearing for two years they're gonna try to break the union. They're gonna try to break the union. That's not gonna happen either. No. I. You know, there'll probably be a lockout. I mean, I propose in the book a a solution that, , if you were watching last month when Bryce Harper got in his face, started talking about the cap, this is not something that they're gonna give up easily.

[01:46:50] You, they're, they're a, they're gonna have to be given something really significant. I, I started talking to people about, well, what if you reduced [01:47:00] the requirement of six years for free agency? What if you gave them free agency earlier? Um, how would that work out financially? , Oh, well then you, then you're gonna, are you gonna take away arbitration?

[01:47:13] You really don't wanna take away arbitration. My dad was an entertainment lawyer who did deals with between people who hated each other, and he represented all of them in the same deal and got it done. So there are always ways, again, thinking outside the box, my friend Michael Halpert, the Economist, came up with a fairly traditional cap, kind of, uh, agreement way to do it, to split the money.

[01:47:39] That would mean that, you know, every franchise had same amount of dough to begin with, um, to spend on player salaries not happening. Dan Rin came up with a variation on that theme. That did basically the same thing, except that it acknowledged that the bigger teams mean, meaning the [01:48:00] bigger revenue teams, um, because they've spent more money to dev, to bought to purchase those franchises and to develop them are entitled to a greater share of the dough, you're splitting it among owners.

[01:48:15] And, , that sounded much more reasonable to me to get the owners to agree to it. Um, but bottom line, I, you know, I don't see, you know, this is a, this is a, a hill they're gonna die on. Yeah. , So what about taking the existing luxury tax system, um, which has been abused so often by owners that, um, by, you know, the money they get that the required, if they're required to spend it on player payroll 

[01:48:49] Mark Corbett: Yeah.

[01:48:49] Jane Leavy: And instead they pocket it, there are still grievances pending from 2018 to 19. And when you ask why players don't trust the owners 

[01:48:58] Mark Corbett: mm-hmm. 

[01:48:59] Jane Leavy: Yeah. [01:49:00] They have reason. Right. But, okay, let's say we make the, the penalties for the, uh, Steve Cohen's of the world even steeper than they are. Uh, you know, rich AmErikans don't like being told that they can't spend their money any way they want, right?

[01:49:18] Um, okay, Steve, go ahead, spend it. But if you give somebody else $765 million for 15 years, by which time I think they're likely to regret that deal. Let's put it that way. Um, you know, then you are really gonna pay through the nose and we're gonna give those other teams enough, and they already give them substantial amount of money.

[01:49:43] You know, the pirates, the, the rays, 

[01:49:45] Mat Germain: the Marlins. 

[01:49:46] Jane Leavy: The Marlins, thank you. Um, I'm, I'm glitching here. Um, you know, and they, and they don't spend it. They pocket it. So, so we're gonna put in penalties. If you do not spend it [01:50:00] the way that you know, you have promised to spend it, first, you're gonna lose all your draft choices.

[01:50:06] Nothing. No, no, no. You know, just slap on the hands, you know, you move down 10 places, none. Zero, zilch. Then we're gonna reduce your, um, uh, 40 man roster or to a 35 man roster. And if that doesn't work. You're gonna get relegated to triple to triple A. You wanna feel the triple A team go play in AA ballpark and major league baseball will have a test to see how baseball will do in Nashville.

[01:50:38] Mat Germain: But you bring up an interesting point 'cause the one thing I do know is that the EFL, like the soccer league in in England has that system. Yes, they do. They have that. Yeah. And I think that's coming to baseball. I do. Uh, and it's gonna take a long time. I think it'll start with a few triple A locations that have the stadium capacity to make it work, et cetera.

[01:50:57] It'll be a slow process. But [01:51:00] I'm not against that process taking place because I think it does two things. Number one, it it, it brings triple A up to a certain level. 'cause then fans will be familiar with more AAA teams that are involved in that league so that it hypes up your minor leagues and it keeps teams accountable to a certain point, which I think you're entirely right.

[01:51:19] Owners, you know, reap all the benefits of all the shenanigans that go on. And I think a lot of times the, the richer owners stay quiet 'cause they just get a better chance at the playoffs. They get a better chance at the better players they get, you know, all the nor notoriety that they're after, which is what they really feed off of anyway.

[01:51:39] Uh, and they're all making money 

[01:51:41] Jane Leavy: to be young. They have a reason to be angry that they're being taxed. And it, and, and it's not being used. I mean, you know, it's in the collective bargaining agreement, you must spend this money Yeah. On player salaries. And they don't, in fact, it says 150% of [01:52:00] the money. I don't know how quite how that works, but that's what it says.

[01:52:03] And so the animosity and distrust are so baked in now. So institutional, , in between, Roy said, oh, it's like an old married couple that, you know, still fighting 30 years later over picking up the dirty socks from the floor that is not nearly, uh, uh, a dark enough simile. This is George and Martha in an Ed Edward Albee play tearing each other apart every six years.

[01:52:33] Mat Germain: Right. And the last time you saw the players get involved, they actually had Max Scherzer there. They had a whole bunch of players literally there, paying attention to every single detail. So I'm wondering who's gonna hold that, position again this time? And you have, 

[01:52:46] Jane Leavy: I would argue actually that, an unfair percentage of the money is going to those old guys.

[01:52:53] Mm-hmm. And part of what's happening is they're trying to undo a system in which you've been, . Remunerated [01:53:00] for the money that, um, you know, for, for what you've already done as opposed to what you're being 

[01:53:07] Mark Corbett: paid 

[01:53:07] Jane Leavy: prospectively to do. Um, and that, that's always been part of the system in baseball. And that's why you made your biggest salary when you're oldest.

[01:53:17] And, you know, Willie Mays was making his, was he making his most money when he was stumbling around in Shea Stadium? I, I'm not sure. But it was always weighted that way. I don't know why the average salary is lower in baseball than it is in, hockey or the NBAI think, or football.

[01:53:38] You know, it's, why is that? It was, I, I, I think it was seven 60 last year. 

[01:53:46] Mat Germain: Um, tell you exactly why, because in hockey and in basketball, the 80% that get paid less refuse to hand everything over to the 20% that make the most, 

[01:53:58] Jane Leavy: well, I think that's, you ask what, what I [01:54:00] think might happen, you know, in this cycle.

[01:54:02] Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm. 

[01:54:03] Jane Leavy: Um, I think there might be, you know, and why the union might be susceptible to being broken. If, um, if, if the owners really try to do that, it might be because of how the allocation of funds, you know. It is, uh, why it's so weighted towards the top. So, okay, I'm going, I'm looking up. Average, uh, what is it?

[01:54:27] It's the minimum salary. Minimum. MLB salary. I think they're up to seven 60 a 

[01:54:34] Mat Germain: year now, ish. Yeah. 

[01:54:35] Jane Leavy: I thought that's what it was. , But then I read somewhere that it was higher, that it was eight something this year. Yeah. Might have gone. 

[01:54:43] Mark Corbett: Yeah, 

[01:54:43] Jane Leavy: let's find out. Minimum MLB salary 2025, 760.

[01:54:52] Mat Germain: There you go. My brain still works.

[01:54:55] Mark Corbett: Yeah. Increasing to 780 in 2026. 

[01:54:59] Jane Leavy: And look [01:55:00] what the minor leaguers had to do to get a, , a wage.

[01:55:03] So what's the beautiful game worth saving and improving and sharing. And, um, somebody called me an old curmudgeon for this book and I'm like, have you read it on online the other night?

[01:55:19] Uh, the other night somebody said, well, I think that's a really light take. And I'm like, I, why don't you try reading the book Tea Crackers, A two minute television interview. Um. You know, I've been very interested. I mean, I'm very gratified at the time. Um, people like yourselves have given me to, to talk about it.

[01:55:41] I've been very surprised at how little of the, you know, it's wise ass, it was intentionally wise ass. Yeah. I wanted it to be funny. , I'm funny. , But, , there's a lot of serious stuff in there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And particularly the section about how this happened. Um, [01:56:00] what led to what, what led to what.

[01:56:02] Um, you know, but we live in a fast, take, light take world. And you know, my big problem with, you know, baseball is that it is, it is example a, um, prima facie evidence of where this world is headed in which knowledge and experience, , is doubted and, , it's not something anybody wants to talk about.

[01:56:30] You know? Why do you push the old guys out and say, why, why did that young punk, as Dusty Baker described them, uh, uh, you know, tell 'em, well, you can't believe what your eyes tell you. Your, you know, your eyes are wrong. 

[01:56:45] Mark Corbett: Hmm. 

[01:56:46] Jane Leavy: Well, I'm sorry. 50 years of experience is worth something. 

[01:56:49] Mat Germain: Yeah. I take, I take some hope in, in guys like Ron Washington, Bruce Bochy , all the, old school kind of of managers that have come [01:57:00] around and, and 

[01:57:01] Jane Leavy: they've been But broach left.

[01:57:03] Yeah, I know. Maybe, I don't know whether he is, he wants another job or not. Right. He did come back and win another World Series and, and Ron Washington was told last week by the ineffable Perry Minasian who's done nothing, um, that he's not welcome back. And it was based on performance. Was that really necessary?

[01:57:24] It's not because of your health. You know, the guy drove himself into the ground, um, worked himself into the ground to try to justify that he was the right man for this job. And I, I spoke to him last week and I revere this man, the minister of particulars, you know, about doing things right and learning the right way to do things.

[01:57:48] Yeah. Uh, and I said, well, you know, the way you can look at it washes that maybe it saved your life because, um, you know, at least you were around [01:58:00] medical staff and if you hadn't worked yourself to the bone the way you were doing, maybe, um, you, the, the, the heart would've gone at some point sometime when, um, you weren't.

[01:58:13] Likely to be, uh, you know, a around the doctors that you, you needed to be. 

[01:58:19] Mat Germain: I've talked to a lot of players that have, have said their careers would be nowhere near where they are if it wasn't for Ron Washington. 

[01:58:26] Marcus Semien owes him pretty much 90% of his salary right now. 

[01:58:30] Mark Corbett: , He was instrumental.

[01:58:31] Wasn't Steve Hatteburg bringing him in at First base? Uh, yeah. And then I, I saw, I think it was something from Washington other other day where he was saying, yeah, they asked him how things were going. He says, well, they expect you to make chicken salad outta chicken shit. And it's like, you know, that's like you though.

[01:58:51] I'm glad that I, I know the man gave so much, gives so much of himself, and I'm glad that there was somebody around him. But [01:59:00] the thing is, people need to respect not only the talent, the things that they've achieved, but what they're able to share. And if you're not gonna take advantage of that, and if you're not gonna respect that, you don't re respect the game.

[01:59:13] And that filters all the way out through all of us, through fans as well. And don't 

[01:59:18] Jane Leavy: you find it ironic that we live in a world where science is suspect everywhere? Unless it's about analytics? 

[01:59:26] Mark Corbett: Yeah. God. 

[01:59:28] Mat Germain: Oh true. If it's sports 

[01:59:30] Jane Leavy: related, 

[01:59:31] Mat Germain: we'll accept it. Oh, oh. 

[01:59:34] Jane Leavy: And, and my friend Peko, the brilliant, , sports analytics babe, um, who knows more about it than all those guys in, in MLB put together says, you know, baseball is the canary in the coal mine.

[01:59:49] You can look at every field, every bad decision, you know, every what they did, what, um, and say, this is what's going on. [02:00:00] You may not know it, but these kinds of numbers and algorithms, this is what's deciding what your insurance rate is. This is what's deciding, you know, who gets into what school. Uh, you know, it, it, some of it's visible to us and some of us, some of it's not.

[02:00:17] But her point, and, and you know, it's a really good one to conclude on, is that the people who create the algorithms and do the numbers, they're geniuses in a way that I just cannot even fathom how they've come to come to be able to create a cyber, you know, strike zone that's gonna function at all is just amazing to me.

[02:00:39] But as she pointed out, these guys don't have what's called domain knowledge. In the world of big data, domain knowledge means. You know what you're talking about, right? You know your shit. Well, the data analysts often are people who are [02:01:00] completely devoid of any knowledge of the context industry, uh, into which their work is being inserted.

[02:01:11] So you can't, they can't know why it doesn't make any sense for baseball. Mm-hmm. You know, or why it makes football by analytics makes football more exciting and made the NBA go for the three point shot, which has now boring people, but, and, but has made baseball a worse game. Yeah. And she said the, the really scary thing is not just that they don't have the domain knowledge, it's that they don't think it's necessary.

[02:01:41] Mat Germain: Yeah. They want the quick way out. That's essentially the way, you know, it comes down and Well, no, 

[02:01:47] Jane Leavy: it's a, it's a belief in that, in, in a system that, you know, is self, uh, reinforcing and, uh, that is, um, what's the word that I'm searching for that, it's, it's [02:02:00] whole and unto itself and therefore doesn't seem to need anything else does or, so, when push comes to shove, I'll go with Peko.

[02:02:12] Mark Corbett: Well, I thank you for that, Jane. Uh, we're talking with Jane Leavy, which, and, uh, make me commissioner and Dagg it. I'm ready to ask, uh, Ron to go ahead and, uh, Rob rather to go ahead, retire early and bring you in now, because God knows we need, uh, you've been a fantastic guest here and there's so much more we could talk for and I know that you probably could as well.

[02:02:32] Jane Leavy: I'll come back. I'll come back, 

[02:02:33] Mark Corbett: please. Good, good. 'cause 

[02:02:34] Jane Leavy: can I ask you guys a favor? 

[02:02:36] Mark Corbett: Please? 

[02:02:38] Jane Leavy: Could you suggest to people that if they buy this book, which I certainly would hope they would, um, but if they buy this book and they find something that they like about it, that they post reviews? Um, because believe it or not, those reviews on Amazon and Good reads really matter.

[02:02:57] Um, I have like a [02:03:00] lot of fives and one, one that has brought down my rating solo low. It's unbelievable. Um, and, you know, I'm proud of it. I I, it took four years. It was supposed to be an easy book to write. Eh, there are no easy books to write. 

[02:03:18] So that's okay. , And there have been times where I've questioned, well, I've spent my entire adult life doing baseball, you know, and in this world I sometimes think, I wish I had been writing about climate science when I got outta journalism in school.

[02:03:35] Um. You know, it, it doesn't matter in the world that we're living in, it's not gonna help my children figure out what to do when it's a hundred degrees every day. , But, , it does matter because it gives people joy. And when we stop caring about giving people joy, then, then we've really surrendered.

[02:03:59] [02:04:00] That's a beautiful way to put it.

[02:04:02] Thank you. 

[02:04:03] Mark Corbett: Thank you for giving us joy, and thank you for sharing all this. And then, yeah, I, I've already, I've, I've already sent, uh, kind copies to other folks, uh, digital copies of your book, so I will definitely make sure and I will promote that as well. So there is, so there's so many great stories, people in this we've just barely touched on and

[02:04:22] so also we'll have to make sure we get the, uh, the bot beat, the bot game going too. 

[02:04:29] Jane Leavy: Bot, you wanna hear some, okay. This is my last funny thing. My first reading. At the first reading I did, I got a note. Very often people will come in and say to a bookseller, would you get her to sign this for, you know, for so and so because blah, blah, or in honor of, so andSo, I got a note saying, because you helped plan my aunt's funeral.

[02:04:56] And I went, what? What? [02:05:00] Geez, Jake. I didn't, I didn't plan to Ann's funeral, and I'm like, holy. I mean, where did that come from? 

[02:05:11] Mark Corbett: Good. Crazy. 

[02:05:12] Jane Leavy: It's, it is very funny. Um, and I, if that person had been there, I would've said, are we related? Do I know you? Oh, oh 

[02:05:22] Mark Corbett: my. Well, thank, thank you for 

[02:05:26] Jane Leavy: sends you out with a laugh.

[02:05:27] Right? 

[02:05:28] Mark Corbett: I love it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jane. It's been a true pleasure 

[02:05:33] Jane Leavy: work. Take care of you guys. I love the backdrop there. Um, I actually had one of me at Yankee Stadium, but um, given that I was late, I didn't take the time to, you know, have it come in and look, whatever. 

[02:05:47] Mark Corbett: Well, 

[02:05:48] Jane Leavy: anyway, thanks.

[02:05:49] Mark Corbett: Thank Bette, the dog for us too, for giving us your time. 

[02:05:51] Jane Leavy: Now where is Bette? The dog? Oh, Bette, the dog is taking us seat. Oh, there she is. There. She's, [02:06:00] hi Bette. It's not, she really can't see. 

[02:06:05] Mark Corbett: Oh man. 

[02:06:07] Jane Leavy: Cannot see. I can send you pitchers of her catching the ball. Yeah. Check my website. Okay. Yeah. I have a whole video travel log of my year traveling through baseball with Bette the dog.

[02:06:21] It's, so, it's kind of like travels with Janie without the dog. Okay.

[02:06:29] Mark Corbett: I look forward to it. I can, you know, so we'll. Oh my gosh, I can't think of anything else except, thank you so much, Jane. 

[02:06:37] Jane Leavy: My pleasure. I really had a good time. It's so take good care. Bye. Alright, you too. Bye-bye bye. Take where? How do I opt out of this? Okay, where's the sign off? Uh, I think I'll go have dinner now.

[02:06:50] Mark Corbett: There you go. You just, 

[02:06:51] Jane Leavy: oh, there it has little leave. It's a new thing. Leave in the corner. Goodnight gentlemen.

metatags: Sandy Koufax, Joe Torre, Jane Leavy, Bette the Dog, Cape Cod, Peko, Analytics, CTEs, Tommy Johns, Little League, Driveline, Ron Washington, Dusty Baker, RaysUp,Bill Cosgrove,Patrick Zalupski,Ken Babby,Jesse Cole,Savannah,Bananas,Jesse Cole,Spaceman,Dodgers,Yankees,Janet Marie Smith