Attorneys in the Baseball Hall of Fame, with Lou Schiff

323 BaseballBiz On Deck with Lou Schiff

[00:00:00] Mark Corbett: Meanwhile, We're here talking with our good friend Mat and I were talking with our good friend today, Mr. Lou Schiff, who is the author. Of a book or at least some chapters of the book of the attorneys in the baseball hall of fame.

[00:00:15] Lou's a good friend of the show and a good friend, period, and we're really glad to have him here today. So Lou, how you been my friend? 

[00:00:22] Lou Schiff: I, I've been good. It's so good to to see you both. , It's been a busy last two months, , became a grandfather, although I don't wanna admit that I'm that old, but I became a grandfather at the end of September which has kept my wife and I busy and I'm just thrilled.

[00:00:37] The baby's healthy, which is the most important thing. Yes, indeed. Mom and dad , are exhausted to the point where they said, I don't know about having a second child, which I kinda laughed. Then I said, well, you know, we'll see, you know, that that's your choice. But my wife has been, , helping out tremendously.

[00:00:54] She just came back, , from up in Orlando, , for the last few days, visiting with them and helping [00:01:00] out, , and I mentioned that, well, I'm gonna go back up. Uh, my brother, , Fred is receiving a big award from the Florida Bandmasters Association this weekend up at Stetson University for a lifetime of, of work.

[00:01:11] So we're gonna go up there and we'll see everybody this weekend too. So I'm real, I'm real proud of my, my baby brother for, for all, for his, for all that he's done. Wow. 

[00:01:21] Mark Corbett: It sounds like an exciting time with the Schiff family, man. Nothing like a grandbaby coming in. I mean, we, I told you before, we just had our first grandchild about nine months ago, and it's like, it's a life altering experience about how you see things.

[00:01:34] You're 

[00:01:34] Lou Schiff: eight months ahead of us, so you just tell me what's going on. 

[00:01:39] Mark Corbett: Oh, man. Well, you know, one of the things we've talked about with Lou on show before is baseball, but the love of our different teams. And Lou, I wanna talk about the book, but I also wanna talk about the, the teams that you grew up with. I mean, you had the Mets and then, then you moved to Florida and you picked up the Marlins.

[00:01:57] , It's been interesting to watch all of our [00:02:00] teams this year. And obviously Mat and I have the, , Tampa Bay Rays, but kind of pulling for the Toronto Blue Jays this year too, if this things came to an end. Yeah. 

[00:02:09] Lou Schiff: I would defer to Mat because I think that, that was a helter skelter kind of year for Mat. I mean, beating the evil empire to go on to play the West Coast Evil empire and being five out, I don't wanna pour salt in the wound, but being five outs away.

[00:02:25] How close were you for popping the champagne, Matt? 

[00:02:28] Mat Germain: It was a name by ending event. It's one of those things where, the nail biters are appreciated regardless of how it goes As a fan, you remember those, like Rays fans will remember that game six against the Dodgers and the, and you know, the, the days that came before that.

[00:02:44] But the, the back and forth between the Dodgers and, and Blue Jays, it really felt like a tug of war between two very even, , caliber teams. So I appreciated it. I thought it was just fun and I think that's what everybody kind of, you know, we, we talk about the state of the [00:03:00] game a lot. To me it's a reflection that we're heading in the right direction, like things.

[00:03:04] Absolutely. Yeah. 

[00:03:06] Mark Corbett: Yeah. It was a very exciting World Series seven games. And you know, in my heart of hearts, I knew the Blue Jays were gonna win. I mean, all's I had to do is pick up a game at home at of two, and, uh, with that crowd, everything else to boot. But wow. The, the, the Dodgers mustered to come back. And before the show, we were talking with Lou and you were mentioning also about, or it may have been you, Matt, talking about Miguel Rojas.

[00:03:31] It's like, where did you come from in the game to be performing like that at the end? Uh, somebody just shake my head for me. 'cause I couldn't do it myself. It was just, I was completely stunned. 

[00:03:46] Mat Germain: So what, what were your thoughts when Dave Roberts actually decided to use him in the lineup? Like, did you expect all of that Lou, as you mentioned, you've watched him play for years with Miami.

[00:03:57] Did 

[00:03:57] Lou Schiff: I expect Miguel Rojas to go [00:04:00] deep? No. No. I, I, I Did You expect Miguel Rojas to go deep? It's, it's one of those kind of moments where. Well, that's why, and that's what I love about baseball more than any other sport, because in basketball you give it a Michael Jordan, all right? , And football.

[00:04:19] You give it a Herschel Walker, , you give it to the same person over and over and over in baseball, when the number nine hiter gets up, everybody holds their breath. It's, it, you can't, you can't bat uh, judge nine times in the game, he, he, he's coming up one hour and that's what's so good about baseball.

[00:04:37] , And the Dodgers put it all together. 

[00:04:40] Mat Germain: Yeah. The whole next man up theory and an emphasis, you know? Mm-hmm. It shows, and that's what makes some teams so much better. So you could argue like some, some of the teams watching that, both on the Blue Jay side and the Dodgers have to weigh their benches differently, especially for the playoffs.

[00:04:57] So now when they're aiming, you know, at the trade deadline. [00:05:00] They're gonna be paying closer attention to their benches and saying, do we have the right guys like Miguel Rojas, to kind of amplify that bench performance when we need it in that big moment. So, yeah. Yeah. 

[00:05:11] Mark Corbett: Well you're saying, you're talking about the bench and you're talking about nine men who are playing.

[00:05:15] I start thinking of another bench, uh, Supreme Court. But one of the reasons we're here today is to talk with Lou about his book, uh, attorneys in the Baseball Hall of Fame. And I go back to when we had another guest on here before and we were talking about one of the baseball, uh.

[00:05:36] Cases that went to the Supreme Court and how some of the JU justices were passing notes back and forth. Their clerks were bringing them in notes on what was going on with the game while they were actually trying to hear arguments on a specific case in baseball at the same time. So nine good people out there making a decision on baseball.

[00:05:56] Nine players on the field. And how many people [00:06:00] are, are you covering in your book here, Lou? Attorneys in, uh, the Baseball Hall of Fame attorneys, 

[00:06:04] Lou Schiff: the attorneys in the Baseball Hall of Fame. So there are, there are 11 attorneys in the Baseball Hall of Fame, , starting with Kenesaw Mountain Landis, who was the first, uh, attorney, , enshrined in the Hall of Fame all the way through, , Tampa native on your side of the state.

[00:06:21] , Tony La Russa, , university of South Florida, grad for, uh, in business and a Florida State University Law School grad. , So we talk about all 11, and Tony is the only member of that elite group that is, uh, still alive. And I know you have a copy of the book, somebody asked me on another interview, so, you know, this is kind of like you, you tell all these great stories about them and what, how great they are.

[00:06:48] And, and the answer is. If needed to, but we don't, we don't tell the stories about somebody being great when they're not great. And, and I can start off with, with [00:07:00] Kenesaw Mountain Landis, which is a, a chapter that Professor Jarvis and I co-wrote together. And we, by the way, we have, including Professor Jarvis and I, we have 10 law school professor and law librarians who each wrote a chapter in the book.

[00:07:13] Uh, and then, uh, professor Jarvis from Nova, he edited it in such a way. He's a brilliant writer and a brilliant editors. The second time he and I have collaborated, . So he edited it. So it appears that only one person wrote the whole text, but obviously there's, there's 10 of us that wrote it.

[00:07:33] But he did it in such a way, and he kind of, you know, remember when you were in school, you'd get a rubric and the teacher would say, this is the way we want you to write. Well, before anybody wrote their chapter, Bob sent out what really is nothing more than a rubric and go, this is how I want you to write the chapter.

[00:07:50] And so that's how we did it. And so we have these 11 chapters and we, uh, with, with 1300 footnotes, and , Bob and I talk [00:08:00] about, . The corruption of, , Kenesaw Mountain Landis. How he was a judge and a baseball commissioner at the same time. And that wouldn't hold true today. You couldn't do both.

[00:08:10] Uh, he's the reason we have a code of conduct for judges because of what, what he was doing. We talk about how, uh, Kenesaw Mountain Landis became a federal judge at age 39, uh, used the influence of his two brothers who were congressmen, how his influence to President Roosevelt got him the standard oil case against Frank, uh, against John Rockefeller.

[00:08:36] And, and so much of the writing in our book is not about decisions that a person might have made as a baseball commissioner or as an executive, or as a manager or a player. We really talk about these folks that have. Been inducted in the Hall of Fame from the lens of their legal careers as attorneys, and we uncovered things about them that most people [00:09:00] never knew.

[00:09:01] So that, that's what we try to do. And, and I heard, uh, I guess it was Ken Burns was on last week, on CBS Sunday morning talking about history and how important it is. And sometimes the history, you know, isn't the history that's really true. And as, as researchers, uh, like you guys are, we're always looking to find out new things and discover new things about people through the lens of history and compare it to today.

[00:09:28] And so what we try to do in attorneys in the Baseball Hall of fame is, is to tell the stories of, of these 13 men, and you can read it in any order. We have the chapters in the order that they were enshrined, but you can read about them in any order you want to find out. What their legal contributions have been to America, , what they've done, good or bad, , from their legal standing, how they use their law degree.

[00:09:56] , William Shea, , famously, , brought baseball back to New [00:10:00] York, and he says, of Walter O'Malley, who is in the Baseball Hall of Fame, that Walter O'Malley, and this is not my words, this is William Shea's words, and it's in the book that William Shaa was such a poor lawyer. He wouldn't have wanted him to even fight a traffic ticket for him.

[00:10:16] That's William Shea. , In the Bowie Kuhn chapter, we discuss, and I say we, the authors discuss. Elizabeth Manriquez wrote that chapter and concludes her chapter by saying that basically Bowie Kuhn and all the decisions he ever made as a commissioner never was on the right side of making a decision.

[00:10:34] , But then we talk about Branch, Rickey and, and Branch Rickey. Truly belong. If there's a Mount Rushmore of, of greats in the Hall of Fame, uh, branch Rickey, and I think we mentioned this on a previous podcast, when we were getting ready to publish the book, a branch, Rickey would be somebody that you'd wanna put up there because he was truly a gentleman who, who was, was fighting for equality, , of all men, regardless of the [00:11:00] color, , of their skin.

[00:11:01] And so he's in the Hall of Fame , for his efforts in his lifetime. Uh, we talk about John Montgomery Ward who made it into the Baseball Hall of Fame as a ball player. He also was the person that was the first person to unionize, uh, baseball through, through the Baseball Players league.

[00:11:20] , Walter Champion, who wrote his chapter, and he's a professor of law from Texas. , He concludes, and not, not that his conclusion, but he points out how John Montgomery Ward for all the good he did, was not a very popular man. That, that people didn't like him. That he was arrogant and rude and,, in spite of all his accomplishments, people just, just didn't like him.

[00:11:41] Later in life, he became a very competitive golfer. And so we, we talk about things that you might not know about these members of the Hall of Fame, , because it's not on their plaque. You probably don't know this about Tony La Russa, but I uncovered it while I was doing the chapter I wrote about it.

[00:11:59] So when [00:12:00] Tony La Russa was in law school. His professor, one of his dear professors, a gentleman by the name of Charles Earhart, uh, Charles Earhart's, still alive today. Charles Earhart became a mentor to Tony, and the advice that he gave Tony was, no matter what you do, you make sure you take the bar exam and you pass it.

[00:12:23] You, you do this because you have to have a fallback position. Right? Um, Tony stuck around a little bit extra in baseball so he could pay for his law degree at Florida State. , Every law school in the state of Florida at the time he went to law school accepted him. But the reason why he went to Florida State was because Florida State was the only one of the law schools that said, we'll turn a blind eye, so to speak, and let you only go to school when it's not baseball season.

[00:12:56] They even let him take his exams early. Now under [00:13:00] today's a BA standards, one might say you're cutting the line close, but they allowed him to do this. This was the 1970s and they allowed him to do it. He graduated towards the very top of his class. And had he practiced law, he probably would've been a very fine, , litigator, I spoke to one of his classmates, but to go back to Charles Earhart, it was Charles Earhart, the mentor that said, you, you need to, you need to finish your law degree.

[00:13:23] You need to do this. This is something you're always gonna have as a fallback position. Well go ahead now to the 1980s, early 1990s. In Oakland, there's a young man by the name of Robin Fuson. And maybe you know the name because he's a circuit judge on, on your side of the state. And Robin was a struggling pitcher who also graduated the University of South Florida and had the fortune of being on the, on the, uh, A's coaching staff in the minor leagues.

[00:13:52] And during spring training, he approached Tony. And Tony at that time, obviously was a member of the Florida bar, and he had a similar [00:14:00] conversation with Tony. And Tony said to him, you need to go to law school. You need to go to law school if you're considering it, because , you're not gonna always have baseball and you have to have something to, to land on.

[00:14:10] And so Robin goes to law school and now he's a circuit judge over in, in Hillsborough County. And he, he attributes the fact that he became a circuit judge to just a small conversation that he had with Tony and Tony mentoring him and telling him how important it was to go to law school. , , That's not on Tony Lar Russa's Hall of Hall of Fame.

[00:14:31] Plaque that, that, that it's not there. So we try to talk about the things that aren't on their plaques , that maybe make them Hall of Famers or maybe make them Hall of Shamers. But this is the kind of things that we try to talk about. So you'll learn a little bit. And the essays are, the essays are about 15 pages each.

[00:14:50] , The book is only 250 pages, which includes the footnotes. And they're very easy reads. You don't have to be a lawyer. You, you know, to, to, to like this [00:15:00] book a baseball fan, lawyer, law student what, whatever. Uh, it's a fun read. And what we also did in it, we, we have pictures of each of the inductees, but they're, they're wearing their, they're wearing their, they're wearing their uniforms.

[00:15:14] They're wearing their legal uniforms. Everybody is pictured dressed as an attorney. We don't have them dressed in their, baseball attire. 

[00:15:23] Mat Germain: I think what's interesting is, is like when you think about baseball as a fan, right? Anybody that wants to be a well-rounded baseball knowledge person, um, I think you kind of overlook a lot of these things that you're talking about and a lot of the people who influenced certain parts of the game, in a very, very critical and important way.

[00:15:44] And, and like you said, there's lessons learned, there's good things, bad things, but it all like the awareness of it all. I is important as a fan to kind of dive into once in a while because it makes you so much more educated and, and it makes you less panicky [00:16:00] about things when they happen. Like we see a lot of changes in the game now.

[00:16:03] We see a lot of things that are going on and you can, you can kind of jump off a bridge because of this reason, jump off a bridge 'cause of that reason. Say this person's doing, crazy things. This person's not doing crazy things. But, but all in all in all, if you have this kind of background knowledge.

[00:16:20] You kind of see that, you know it all in all, it usually comes out to, uh, to an interesting story that you can tell any to anybody that you're talking to after the fact at a game, especially 

[00:16:32] Lou Schiff: you, you can understand, well, let's look at what's going on right now in Cleveland. 

[00:16:37] Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:38] Lou Schiff: So you have two Guardian players that have allegedly committed crimes by getting involved with alleged gamblers by literally allegedly misfiring a pitch on purpose.

[00:16:57] And I read that one of the ball [00:17:00] players had like a $20 million guarantee. Now if this is true, this person is looking at, I read going to federal prison for several decades, but remember folks are innocent until proven guilty. Now, if we look at this in the lens of Kenesaw Mountain Landis, Kenesaw Mountain Landis after the Black Sox, and remember Kenesaw Mountain Landis look called baseball.

[00:17:27] It's been a hundred years since Kenesaw Mountain. Landis was commissioner a little bit more than a hundred years. 1922, 1921. He gets the position as commissioner because of some of the rulings he made as a judge and one. Some of them were good, some of them may not have been good, but he gets the position and he says, I'm gonna be a czar.

[00:17:49] And the three Men National Commission is disbanded because gambling as that an e epidemic and the sport is in question, the [00:18:00] integrity of the game is, is floundering. And people are saying, look, if, if this is the way baseball is, then we shouldn't have it. So when the Black Sox, the White Sox are acquitted, found not guilty, the very, the very first thing that Kenesaw Mountain Landis does is that he's bans these players for life.

[00:18:20] They'll never be able to be involved in baseball ever again. Fast forward to where we are today. The baseball commissioner, the players , they're not banned right now, but they're kind of on unpaid leave and I'm sure they're gonna wait to see the outcome of the case. And then if we go back three months, whether you like it or not, the president of of the United States has put pressure on the baseball commissioner, and I believe he put pressure on him to open up the Hall of Fame to some people that have been excluded up till this point.

[00:18:58] Yeah. So [00:19:00] gambling has changed. Baseball, , there used to be signs up at ballparks and you remember seeing them, mark and Matt, that no gambling. And now during the World Series, what do we see live from Toronto? On the outfield walls there's an ad for DraftKings. So is anyone surprised that in 2025 that there are two ball players that ha are alleged to have been involved in?

[00:19:27] Some sort of, I can't say it's throwing of a game because they didn't say they threw the game, but they're alleged to be doing things to the benefit of gamblers during a game and knowing the outcome. Is anybody surprised that that's happening? 

[00:19:43] Mark Corbett: Not here,

[00:19:44] Mat Germain: had conversations about it over and over again saying it was, it was coming.

[00:19:48] Like we, we predicted that and it's only gonna get worse. I don't think they'll be the last. It's a little bit like steroids. Even though we knew that people were getting punished for it, people still did it. Even Shohei Ohtani, I would [00:20:00] say, I would go back to Shohei Ohtani. We, I, I think somebody fell on their sword in that case to, , prevent things from coming out in a certain way and harm the game irreparably for generations.

[00:20:12] So the, the, the impact of these things is very interesting. But you could also argue. The game has also been changed, you know, by, from lawyers and the fact that players are represented by lawyers now. They have agents a lot of times that are either part of an agency that has access to lawyers and instructs players, or gives them advice.

[00:20:33] You know, on the lost point of view, , they have M-L-B-P-A who also, , employ lawyers. They have, I don't know, maybe a dozen lawyers that play that work for the MLBPA depending on how close they're to the CBA. You're surrounded by people who are willing to give you advice and are supposed to be helping you and impacting the game in a positive way, or in keeping you in between those two lines.

[00:20:55] But as we see, there's always, interesting stories that come about [00:21:00] despite all that. 

[00:21:02] Lou Schiff: It's interesting you talk about the players. You know, the original Marvin Miller was not the first, uh, Marvin Miller is not an attorney and he's now in the Baseball Hall of Fame. But someone said, oh, well you forgot Marvin Miller, or, no, I didn't forget it.

[00:21:15] He, he wasn't an attorney. He was a labor union, executive, in,, Detroit and, and in the automobile industry, major League Baseball. You know, we, we talk about major league baseball like this, this big fuzzy thing. Every year, major League Baseball talks about Jackie Robinson Day, and they do all these things, but Major League Baseball for a long time just wouldn't allow the mention of, of, of Jackie Robinson Day because it wasn't in their best interest.

[00:21:43] And so they, they sometimes hide things. So I'm not, when I talk about Major League baseball, I'm not. From the commissioner's office, I'm talking about the organization, , major League baseball. So when the players were first unionized, and this is after John [00:22:00] Montgomery Ward tried to unionize them with the players league , in the late 1800, early 19 hundreds, , the owners themselves sell, basically handpicked a judge by the name of Robert Cannon from Texas to be the player's union.

[00:22:15] Executive players revolted pretty quickly. And the next thing you know, uh, you know, Marvin Miller becomes , the agent in charge , and brings them to where they are today. , And so yes, there are a lot of lawyers that work for the Major League Baseball Players Association, but there's probably more lawyers that work for Major League Baseball, the organization.

[00:22:37] Mat Germain: What are your thoughts on, uh, the, the newest version, like the newest obstacle You're talking about the players union. Uh, but now the minor league players are also a part of that, and one of the people that's getting a lot of pRays and is seen as the person who got them, I think it's 34 of the 72 votes in M-L-B-P-A actually belonged to minor leaguers now, which is gonna impact the CBA.[00:23:00] 

[00:23:00] But Harry, uh, Marino was the lawyer that is, you know, in charge of that movement, and now he's part of M-L-B-P-A and people are saying that they want him to have a bigger role in M-L-B-P-A because they really like the way he progressed things from, uh, for the minor league players as part of the M-L-B-P-A now.

[00:23:19] Lou Schiff: Well, so as a, as a historian, , Matt, , you're aware that that minor leaguers were working for less than minimum wage. Terrible. And so the, there was lawsuits filed regarding that. If, if you take a look at the history of major league baseball, major league baseball settles most, if not all of their lawsuits eventually, that they, that they do.

[00:23:48] And this fight to unionize the minor leagues was a long fight. But what did baseball do in the middle of this fight? Baseball says, we're gonna get rid of 25. We're gonna, we're gonna get rid of [00:24:00] 25% of the teams. And they were allowed to do it because of the way the contracts were. So they get rid of 25% of the teams.

[00:24:06] So now, and then they go, and now here's how, well, let's see. We'll get rid of 25% of the teams and oh, we're only gonna have the draft a certain amount of rounds. We don't need 70 rounds in the draft. So they limit now the number of, of ball players that, that are under a. Under minor league rule. And, and, and so again, this is an organization and don't kid you, there's a great book by, and I think, I think you've already interviewed him, and if you haven't, you really should.

[00:24:34] Craig Calcaterra Reinventing Fandom. It's a book he wrote about four or five years ago, but it's worth re-exploring with Craig that he, that that, you know, he calls it the industrial complex, but don't kid yourself the role of a major league baseball team before to make their fans happy is to make money for the owners or that's what the, that's what their role is.

[00:24:58] And [00:25:00] us being from small market teams, 

[00:25:03] Tampa, Miami, Toronto, um, being from a small market team, we've gotta win with smoke and mirrors. There, there's no, , Juan Soto contracts coming into the Marlins and Sandy, instead of talking about how much they're gonna pay Sandy to pitch, the conversation now is what can they get for Sandy so that I don't have to pay him?

[00:25:30] I've 

[00:25:31] Mat Germain: been talking about bringing him to Toronto. 

[00:25:35] Lou Schiff: \ If you could pay him to go to Toronto, that's good. You know, I, I, I wish you well, I think he's a great guy. I would hope that the, I would hope the Marlins would keep him. The nice thing about this ba past baseball season from a Marlins fan standpoint was that they didn't trade anybody.

[00:25:51] They didn't trade any of their pitchers, which said to me as a fan, that's really good. They're trying to win with the players they have. And I enjoyed it [00:26:00] because they made it close down the home stretch, you know, but for getting swept by the Rockies, they, they could have been there themselves. 

[00:26:10] Mat Germain: Yeah, you had what I think, you know, as a somebody that monitors, you know, most teams I try to pay attention and, and get a feel for where, where they stand overall as an organization.

[00:26:21] I think the biggest key for you guys is you actually got some core position players established this year. So you got Kyle Stowers , and Augusta , Ramirez, which I think are two really great, people you can build around now, you can attract more talent. You can kind of start to build.

[00:26:38] 'cause the pitching, like you say, is there, not only do they have that top layer, they have two layers below that, that are very intriguing pitching prospects. So then they 

[00:26:48] Lou Schiff: just got, they just let Troy Johnston just go away. That was like, why I don't understand. I I don't because they weren't paying him anything compared to everybody else.

[00:26:59] [00:27:00] They would, they didn't protect him. And that's, I, and I think he's, he, he went to the, did he go to the Rockies? I think the Rockies got 'em. I think the Rockies got 'em. And the Marlins play the Rockies the first series of the season. And you know what that means? He's gonna come back , and haunt the Marlins.

[00:27:18] This is the way, how's the building going over on your side Mark? I saw some pictures. You're, you're gonna be ready for opening day. 

[00:27:24] Mark Corbett: They are indeed. They are indeed. Uh, had a good fortune of meeting Ken Babby and some of the other ones while back. And they were talking about they're getting up there one panel at a time opening day.

[00:27:34] They're, that's the target to have that puppy open. And we're all very excited about it here. It's, , people who are Rays fans live as skeptics these days. They actually probably have for over a decade or so about what, where they're gonna be playing. But, uh. It looks like the Trop for a few years, and then hopefully new owners will have found some land.

[00:27:57] I think maybe they have and uh, [00:28:00] we'll look for a new one. 

[00:28:01] Mat Germain: So I have to say, 'cause I'm, I'm a Rays insider, they, they came out with their first sort of marketing, , effort, right. As the new organization, mark and I were talking about how they, , they're changing things up and we think they'll have a different focus with the new group than they did with, uh.

[00:28:19] Stu Sternberg at the helm, but they, they, they're already selling tickets for the beginning of the year. 

[00:28:24] Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

[00:28:25] Mat Germain: Uh, so I mean, if they're selling the tickets and they're saying, okay, well now they're single tickets. And it's interesting how they, they seem to be pointing at, 'cause I don't remember the Rays ever freeing those up this early, uh, in terms of single seat tickets.

[00:28:39] So I think they're trying to fill the entire Trop for the first time in a long time. That's the feeling, the initial feeling I get from that email, they sent it, 

[00:28:49] Lou Schiff: the, the Marlin sent me an email today saying that single game tickets for season ticket holders went on sale this morning at 10 o'clock. So I went online to see [00:29:00] kind of who they're playing to see if I wanted to pick up extra tickets.

[00:29:04] And I looked at the schedule and it's like, eh.

[00:29:09] Yeah, you know, it, it's, uh, it, it, the Yankees aren't in this year. And then I look to see what seats were available, and I see that they're still holding back some of the good seats, hoping that they'll sell, uh, those seats as part of season ticket packages or partial season ticket packages. So there's no real incentive to buy some seats right now because the real good seats, they're still holding back the real good seats.

[00:29:33] Mat Germain: Right. So I took a deep dive at your budget in Miami as well, and, uh, Uhhuh 17 million that, that, uh, Sandy is owed if you take that away. Right. And they do trade him somehow, and they decide to go with another starter in his spot. The highest paid player will make under $4 million. And, and who's that? And the entire Cabrera Edward Cabrera.

[00:29:56] Yeah. And that's a, his arbitration goes a assert, right? [00:30:00] They could extend him. I don't know. Um, but there's, um. You know, there's a case to be made if you're, if you're an MLB team and you know, the gambling money we're just talking about, just that in itself probably covers the 37 million that would be on the 40 man roster for the Marlins.

[00:30:17] Once Sandy leaves 37 million is what the, the Dodgers call one starter. 

[00:30:24] Mark Corbett: Jeez. Yeah. 

[00:30:25] Mat Germain: Right. And that's your 

[00:30:26] Lou Schiff: foodie man roster. So, and, and that explains, and, and again, it's not always money that wins it, it's, it's not always the, the, the team that pays the most, that wins is, is, is evident with. The Mets, but it certainly enhances your chances when you are playing with ball players and you've tried to develop and, and put on your team a couple of extra ball players.

[00:30:53] And now we're, , at the end of next year we'll be looking at whether or not there'll be a strike. Will there be a strike? What's gonna happen? [00:31:00] And then just from the standpoint of, of again, the organization itself, uh, the fans will run away again. Should, should Major League Baseball and the players union decide that they are not going to meet, it'll do harm to the, , fans that are on the outside.

[00:31:19] Uh, yeah, they should, they should learn that this year's World Series, there were 35 million people that will watch Game seven. Wonderful. That, that's incredible numbers. That's, that's more people than watch game seven in the NBA finals. And I, and I know I heard from basketball friends of mine. Well, you have to understand that was, it was Indiana and, and Oklahoma City.

[00:31:41] That's why there was Well, no, it was still a game seven. And, and I, you know, yes, it was LA and yes, it was Canada, but still, I mean, basketball's supposed to be that big engine that's overtaken baseball and, and they didn't even come close to baseball's numbers, 

[00:31:59] Mark Corbett: you [00:32:00] know? Yeah. In, in the midst of all this though, and Matt, we, we've talked about this in the midst of all this, we've seen the growth of the game, of the excitement.

[00:32:07] There's more youth in it. Uh, the game has been shortened and this is absolutely the time to put the brakes on that with potentially. A lockout. And I cannot imagine 30 owners looking at that program and saying, yeah, let's go ahead and be, put our feet down and shut out a season because that, this is, I don't wanna see that nail in the coffin.

[00:32:31] And Matt, we've talked about this before. I've got a friend who in 1995, after that, he swir off baseball watching it all together. And, and to this day, he has not come back. He's just, I can't imagine how many more people we will lose after seeing that great growth of all of the audience that we've seen with just what you say with the World Series.

[00:32:52] Right. 

[00:32:53] Mat Germain: So if you were, if you were the M-L-B-P-A, if you were part of that team that's representing them, like I've talked to [00:33:00] Mark about this, about opening up the books, right. And on MLB standpoint and splitting it 50 50, 'cause a lot of the leagues seem to be aiming that way. They seem to be running, you know, the players get 50%, they split it up, however they do with salary caps.

[00:33:13] The, the owners get 50%, but the books are open supposedly for 

[00:33:18] Lou Schiff: sure, 

[00:33:19] Mat Germain: for some sort of measure. Sure, 

[00:33:20] Lou Schiff: sure. They were, yeah. 

[00:33:21] Mat Germain: How, how would you do that? How would you do that? Major League Baseball, and would it ever happen on the owner's standpoint? Because without that, I don't think you can argue for a Saturday cap.

[00:33:33] Lou Schiff: I'm not a big fan of salary caps. , I think there should be some sort of, , and there's supposed to be a salary minimum, but the morals have been accused of not even living up to that standard. , I don't think someone should be penalized. With , the teams are penalized in a sense. They get taxed, but that, I don't think there should be a limit.

[00:33:51] If, if you were a business, if you, if you and, and, and Matt, uh, mark are competing and you're selling something and you're on different sides of the [00:34:00] town and, and, and you have good employees, you don't wanna be told you can only pay somebody a certain amount. You may, you may want us pay a little bit more to maybe even entice some of Matt's people to come work for you when their contract is over.

[00:34:14] I, I think it's, I think the competition is healthy. I, I do. I, but then I, I might be in the minority. I think competition is good and, and, but I would like to see owners open up their purse a little bit and, and take out some, because it, it doesn't seem like any of them are, are, are crying to the bank. 

[00:34:34] Mark Corbett: No. 

[00:34:35] Mat Germain: So I watch a lot of hockey.

[00:34:37] I watch a lot of, of. You know sports where their salary cap is. What I see is that the stars are able to stay on their original team, and that's what I want. That's what we lose with no salary cap. Everybody knows right now in free agency, the Dodgers get whoever they want. It doesn't matter. You, you can, you can put the same money from every team on the [00:35:00] table.

[00:35:00] They're going to the Dodgers or they're going to the Mets or the Yankees. Bo Bichette, the Dodgers can only put 26 people on their roster, but why are the 27 other teams part of the league? Like at that point, like it is just nonsense. It, I don't agree with the whole, all the stars need to gravitate to the major media places.

[00:35:18] I want Elly de La Cruz to stay in Cincinnati his whole career. I want him to be that staple guy, wankers the kids can really, you know, gravitate to him. Say, that's our guy, Evan Longoria. 

[00:35:31] Lou Schiff: What Deli De Cruz won't, you know, that's the thing. What does he want as a ball player? Does, does he wanna stay in Cincinnati his whole career or does he want, you know, we don't have right now, well, we do with the, with the Latin American players pretty much, you know, they could be signed by anybody.

[00:35:47] But when we're talking about the, the, uh, American players, United States and Canadian players, when they get drafted, if, if, if you, you grew up a Toronto fan and, and you get drafted by [00:36:00] Oakland, um. Do you wanna stay with Oakland your whole career? You may wanna go back 

[00:36:05] Mat Germain: and play in Toronto, but I don't want it to be a financial, uh, decision.

[00:36:10] Like, I'll give you an example. Steve Stamkos just left Tampa recently, right? He didn't leave that because the, the lightning couldn't pay him anymore. He left there because, like you said, it was his decision, but it was under a salary cap system and he still got to go to where he wanted to go and everything was fine.

[00:36:26] What I'm saying is, is that the, the position of the team shouldn't be, we wanna keep him. The player wants to stay, but we can't pay him what he's worth because of the system that's in place. That's what's happening right now. 

[00:36:38] Lou Schiff: They can't pay him. They just refuse to. Okay? So the Dodgers and the Mets and the Yankees are perfect examples that we're gonna pay what we think we can pay to keep the ball player.

[00:36:47] And once we think that ball player is no longer, uh, when the ball player's expectations are higher than what we think their ability is, then we'll let you go play for someone else. 

[00:36:58] Mat Germain: Here's the difference. If, if I, [00:37:00] let's say for argument's sake, Ali De De La Cruz is able to get 38 million a year from the Reds, okay?

[00:37:06] How much of their income is that as compared to the Dodgers? It might be 2% of the Dodgers income, it might be 40% of the, the Red's income. The decisions are completely different. It doesn't, it's, it's not even relatable because to the Dodgers, he's just another guy. They can DFA him. It won't hurt them Well, but for Reds it's a lifetime, 

[00:37:28] Mark Corbett: right?

[00:37:28] What if we take, what if we take all that penalty money for the Dodgers, and then we say you infuse that to the other small market teams and you help build up their base, because we know they're all broke anyway, right? No, but I'm saying that money has to be going somewhere to grow the game and yes.

[00:37:47] Let's face it, small markets can ride the back of the big teams 'cause of what they're gonna get on TV rights, what they're gonna get on, anything that's sold online as far as merch, all of that. 'cause smallest little team's going to get everything that [00:38:00] sold from Yankees and Dodgers online.

[00:38:02] That smallest team on number 30 is going to get money from them with, I believe an equal share is at one 30th of it. So, money's there. 

[00:38:12] Lou Schiff: Why did, why did Sternberg sell the team for $2 billion? 

[00:38:17] Mat Germain: 1.7 billion? Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:18] Lou Schiff: $1.7 billion. Okay. I can't even fathom $1.7 billion. Now they're gonna expand baseball in a couple of years, and I, I'm hearing that the ante money for expansion is gonna be about 2 million, $2 billion a team just to buy in before you have to do anything else.

[00:38:41] And that's why I don't, I don't see a need for salary. Caps don't, don't come crying to me. You know what? No one would make baseball go, great. Here's what this is. What would make baseball owners start to pay if your team finishes in the last two spots? [00:39:00] You're 

[00:39:00] Mat Germain: relegated, 

[00:39:01] Lou Schiff: you're relegated, you're, you're, you're done.

[00:39:03] And you have another owner in waiting in the minor leagues. The problem is the owner in the minor leagues is the owner in the major leagues. But if there's some way you take a team and you relegate them and you say, you know what? White Sox, you were so bad this year we're gonna play with 29 teams.

[00:39:19] Alright? And then, and that's how it's gonna be. So maybe you do have 32 teams and only the top 30 compete. And then when those two teams fall apart, you take the, the other two teams and you bump 'em up and then you figure out a way. But if you're, if you're a major League team and you know that your team is so bad that it's, it's gonna be relegated to be playing in a, in a different division, I, I don't know.

[00:39:43] Maybe it's more competitive that way. I don't have an answer. 

[00:39:47] Mat Germain: It would be genius. And I'm on the same page. I sold this idea to mark a few weeks ago or a few months ago because. It, it would elevate the minor leagues as well because all those AAA teams would have to build up their stadiums, would have to build up [00:40:00] the infrastructure and, and get knowledgeable fans involved.

[00:40:03] 'cause they want to fill their stadiums to make it to that next level to be able to buy the right players, et cetera. 

[00:40:09] Lou Schiff: , You'd have to have, um, well there are different owners, but they would have to be affiliated differently. So for example, the, uh, the, the St. Paul Saints are not owned by the Minnesota Twins.

[00:40:20] They're owned by, they're owned by, what's the name of that group? The Diamond, uh, diamond Corporation Group has bought a whole bunch of teams. So yeah, diamond would be competing and they would say, yeah, we'd love to take our St. Paul Saints , if they're the best team in,, in aaa. And all of a sudden the Minnesota Twins, they have a really bad season.

[00:40:36] Now all of a sudden they're the AAA team of the St. Paul Saints. That would just be wild. 

[00:40:41] Mat Germain: Well, here's a, here's an idea. You, you have expansion talk, right? And you get six teams to build stadiums and build. Right. And then they have a, a small season within themselves to earn the right to be the 31st and 32nd team 

[00:40:56] Lou Schiff: who's gonna pay for the stadiums, 

[00:40:58] Mat Germain: I dunno.[00:41:00] 

[00:41:01] Lou Schiff: Oh, but then you have 

[00:41:02] Mat Germain: the, the setting for the league so that when they do get promoted and you put that system in where there's relegation and promotion, they're ready. They're already there. Whereas right now with aaa, how many teams could really do that? You know, maybe four or five. 

[00:41:15] Lou Schiff: I don't even know if there's that many.

[00:41:17] No, 

[00:41:18] Mat Germain: you know, they, it would be, it would be like what the Rays did with Steinbrenner Field. It would be similar to that in terms of numbers. So that, that's tough to pull off. 

[00:41:26] Mark Corbett: Yeah, I do. Like, I do, I do like the whole idea though, the, the bottom two being relegated and saying, guys, you had the opportunity.

[00:41:35] You didn't do it. I played 

[00:41:36] Lou Schiff: hockey. If you ahead, you're now, you're now a hockey team. Good luck. Yeah. Thank you very much. 

[00:41:45] Mark Corbett: Oh, well, you know, I have to ask you about the book again, and Okay. You're talking, we, we were talking simply about Robin Fuson, who, who's become a judge as well. I sometimes think baseball almost [00:42:00] entertains a legal mind in the sense of there's rules that are involved, there's judgments that are constantly being made on the field.

[00:42:07] , Decisions are being made about the value of a player or a manager. So seems like there's a lot of judgment going on, a, a lot of things with that. I, and then you look at the number of a attorneys, I mean, what's upon a time wouldn't necessarily think that a representative of a player would have to be an attorney, but I think it's almost, you know, you have to be, when you look at all the different elements that are involved in looking at that, that player's career and potential.

[00:42:34] So is baseball just basically a, an attorney? . Friendly factory, if you will, or is there a, uh, has an appeal, I should say to attorneys? 

[00:42:46] Lou Schiff: There's a lot of rules in baseball. 

[00:42:48] Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm. 

[00:42:48] Lou Schiff: And, and attorneys are, are rule kind of people that, that we wanna know what to expect. And that, that's in any, in any area of life.

[00:42:58] That's where, you know, attorneys, [00:43:00] attorneys come in, um, I think, and then it's a business. So baseball is, it's not the game that we played when we were 12 years old. This is a game that people's livelihoods are at stake and people come to watch other people play. And there are thousands of jobs that are at stake with a baseball team from the person that takes your, uh.

[00:43:29] Uh, motions you into the parking lot, to the, to the security, to the police, that, that, that secure the stadium to the folks that clean the stadium. There's just thousands of, I've jokingly said that there's more people in the ballpark who work for the team than there are fans at the Marlin's game.

[00:43:45] Sometimes, uh, there's a lot of mouths to feed. Uh, and so there's gonna be a lot of lawyers involved. Different unions, uh, players are, are making. More money than ever before. If you, if you read the, the, [00:44:00] the cases that when John Montgomery Ward was first trying to start the players, uh, the initial players, union courts used to rule that the reserve clause was a good rule because of a player didn't like what they were earning.

[00:44:14] They could go back on the farm and make more than they, they, you know, they can go back to being a farmer and, and make more than a ball player. Well, we know that that's, that was kind of true up until the 1960s where ball players were driving beer trucks in, in the wintertime where I remember there was a substitute teacher at my, uh, junior high school in New York that was a picture for the Mets at one point.

[00:44:39] So he would. Be a substitute teacher in the winter and be a ball player in, in, in the summer. Uh, now players are expected to stay in, in good shape all year long, and you need lawyers. Uh, there's a case going on right now that's going up to the United States Supreme Court that's out of Puerto Rico, uh, dealing with a, a malpractice [00:45:00] issue and some rules and laws on workers' compensation.

[00:45:04] And so it's a complicated off the field game on, on, on on many, many levels. If, if you build a stadium, there's gonna be lawsuits involved in the building of the stadium. If if, 

[00:45:16] Mark Corbett: yeah, 

[00:45:17] Lou Schiff: But that's life, you know, it is just the, the way it is. I, I have said this before and I'll say it again.

[00:45:23] I truly believe you could probably teach an entire first year of law school, uh, nothing but baseball law classes because they cover everything. Torts and contracts and real estates. And there's family law and there's estate law. There's all, all kinds of issues, civil procedure issues that you can learn , from various baseball cases.

[00:45:42] , But that's all sports. I don't know much about the legality or know very little to next to nothing about the legal cases besides the Roseli case, , in professional football, that con that contrasts with the, federal baseball case. , But baseball has, has been [00:46:00] America's pastime, so to speak.

[00:46:01] And you, you brought it up when we started. Uh, the Supreme Court has had a love for baseball. Many of the, the men who were on the Supreme Court in, the nine early 19 hundreds to the mid 19 hundreds were ball players. The wizard, , white, you know, there were a lot of ball players that were sat on the court.

[00:46:18] They loved the game, so they analogized some of their decisions to, to being a ball player. Chief Justice Roberts, when he interviewed for his position , with the Senate, said that he's an umpire and all he is gonna do is call balls and strikes. It's a way of looking at things.

[00:46:35] Mark Corbett: Let, let me ask you, since you've taken the robe off, do you feel free enough, more free to speak your mind about what you see going on, whether baseball or on teams? 

[00:46:48] Do you feel freer to speak about cases in that 

[00:46:52] Lou Schiff: I've always spoken about baseball cases, , that I've always kind of felt free to do i'm a retired judge. Uh, I, I, [00:47:00] so I, I enjoy. Having had the robe off now for almost a year, it's, it's been enjoyable.

[00:47:06] . I just wish that as an American society, that, and this, and when I say America, I mean North America, America in, in, in, that we would all get along a little bit better. Amen. That, that, but that was part of that, that that's what my job was as a judge.

[00:47:21] That it didn't matter what someone's race, religion, nationality was. My job was to rule in accordance with the facts and the law. And I just wish that, that people would be kinder to one another and, and, and, and listen more, uh, and, and quit the name calling. You know, we, we hear it on all stop calling people names.

[00:47:41] Do you have to call people names? Can't we make decisions based upon what's best for everybody and just quit calling. That's what the judiciary does. The third branch of government. Is the one that calls balls and strikes. You don't have to be a showman to call balls and strikes, you just call it.

[00:47:59] Yeah. And when you [00:48:00] leave, at the end of the day, uh, one of my good friends, David Dinkin, who's, a retired judge on your side of the state also Mark, he just retired as a Sarasota County Court judge after 25 years as a judge. He used to say this, we used to teach together a lot. People will, will long remember how you made them feel than the decision that you made.

[00:48:22] That is so, and I think we need to start doing more of that as just people. And if we do that, I think we, I, we, I have so many friends that, that politically I don't necessarily agree with, but they're my friends and I, I don't, we don't, we sometimes we just agree not to talk about things. We don't agree with smart 'cause, , just the way it is.

[00:48:42] We live in great countries, you know, these are two of the greatest countries on earth. And, we need to get along because. We have so many things in common and, , extol, extol the things that, that are good about people and, and, and don't dwell on the things that you don't [00:49:00] like about somebody.

[00:49:01] Mat Germain: I think we, we have everything to lose from all the fighting that's going on or the bickering, and we have nothing to gain from it. So I don't understand why it's even, you know, I get at some point people want to change. Things around they wanted to make, you know, some sort of evolution in some way, shape, or form.

[00:49:21] But you're right, it's, and, and the question that often comes up is who teaches that to people in general? Yeah. And what are their sources of information and where do they get their facts from? So I think, and one of the, and and I've talked about this with Craig, uh, Calera, was that we need to find a way to get people to trust facts again.

[00:49:41] And in the age of AI and the media the way it is, I don't know how we do that. There's so much manipulation going on behind, you know, the scenes. I, I 

[00:49:48] Lou Schiff: don't, I don't know how we do it either. Um, judges have been fooled. Uh, lawyers have gotten caught submitting, uh, briefs with ai, the cases that don't [00:50:00] exist, the hostility.

[00:50:02] Uh, I was quoted in a, in a, in. Newspaper article, I guess, this past March about the lack of civility in court since, , the pandemic lawyers. And I think this is just people in general, people don't do, and maybe now this is me showing my, my, my 70 years of age. Okay? People don't write handwritten thank you notes.

[00:50:28] People don't go to coffee with somebody they may disagree with before a hearing. If you break bread with somebody, you'll learn something about that person that you'll realize you have in common. But too often we get this flat screen and lawyers come on and they wanna argue their case, and I wanted to see the lawyers tell me something about the other lawyer.

[00:50:53] Mark Corbett: Mm. 

[00:50:54] Lou Schiff: Why do you mean judge? Well, no, what do you know about the other, you didn't even know where they went to law school. What do you, what do [00:51:00] you know about 'em? And, and again, this is maybe me being just the old guy. Um, you would learn about, you would sit outside a hearing room and, and, and, and, you know, be in a news reporter.

[00:51:09] You, you know, you would be in the same press box with somebody and you might be, maybe, you know, you read, maybe you're competitors and you're competing for the same readership. But if you're sitting next to somebody in a press box, you'll find out they're a really good person. They, they're not trying to beat you over the head.

[00:51:26] You know, maybe you'll share an idea that'll give them an idea and you'll get an idea on, on writing a story. There's, there's nothing wrong with sharing of ideas and learning about the person that you're with. Not everybody's out to get you. 

[00:51:39] Mat Germain: All right, well, on that note, I have a couple of ideas for you.

[00:51:43] Yeah. Now you've got this great book, right? You've got, you know, it's out there. Yeah. It's a living, breathing thing. And that must be, must feel like a great accomplishment. It's been 

[00:51:52] Lou Schiff: fun. It got to number one on Amazon a couple of times. The American Bar Association, uh, did a wonderful [00:52:00] review of, of the book a, a week or two ago.

[00:52:02] And it's just been in the, if it hasn't been number one, it's been in, in the top five or six for the last two or three weeks. So I guess it's selling three copies a day instead of , no copies a day. But it, it's been a lot of fun, you know, so I've been able to take some of my retirement time. 'cause if I was a full-time judge, , I couldn't in the middle of the afternoon be making phone calls or sending out emails.

[00:52:23] I was doing something else. 

[00:52:25] Mat Germain: So, so my idea was how do you expand on it? Because eventually Scott Boris is gonna make it into the Hall of Fame. Oh. So you're gonna 

[00:52:34] Lou Schiff: have, there's never been a player agent that the closest player agent to the Hall of Fame is, uh, is Marvin Miller, and he was employed by the Major League Baseball Players Association.

[00:52:46] Does, does Scott Boris get into the baseball Hall of Fame? Boy, I, I, I, I, I could give you, um, probably not before Manford. 

[00:52:58] Mat Germain: The, the players get [00:53:00] to vote, right? Uh, so not at point. It's like, well, no, there's that era. 

[00:53:05] Lou Schiff: There's the era folks that get to vote. And the Ford Frick wing has, the broadcasters and there's a, there's an attorney broadcaster in there that's, , Mel Allen.

[00:53:16] Mark Corbett: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:17] Lou Schiff: Many folks don't realize that Mel, Mel Allen, university of Alabama, sometime in the 1930s, uh, his name was Melvin Israel. So folks, uh, it might not be aware of that, but he, he was a University of Alabama, uh, law grad. But some names that come to mind, or, or maybe Epstein. Uh, certainly Manford. Um, but I don't think, I, I, I don't think we'll ever see another baseball player.

[00:53:43] Mat Germain: What about William Matthews? William Clarence Matthews. So recently Major League Baseball brought in the Negro League stats, right? They've, they've started to open the door in a lot of different areas and they started to look back at some of the players from [00:54:00] different generations that had an impact on the game.

[00:54:02] He's one of those names that I could see potentially being added, right? They could be an uh, 

[00:54:07] Lou Schiff: um, but contemporary players, so there's no contemporary players, right? Yeah. That are, are attorneys. Don Clendenon comes to mind. Uh, but he played for the Mets in the sixties and the Pirates in the sixties and into the seventies, and then became an attorney.

[00:54:24] But ball players now, you know, one of the reasons ball players were lawyers or even doctors or whatever, because they had to make more money during the off season. Now what's, what's the, maybe Matt, you were, mark, you must know it. What's the minimum baseball salary? 7 5807 

[00:54:40] Mat Germain: 75, I think is the latest one.

[00:54:43] Lou Schiff: Nice work. If you can get it, if you maybe it $775,000 a year. Is there a need to go to law school? 

[00:54:51] Mat Germain: I don't know. The government gets half l That's not, that's not much bread. 

[00:54:55] Lou Schiff: Well, if you're working in the state of Florida, there's no Florida income tax. That's right. So there's a little bit [00:55:00] more for your pocket.

[00:55:01] Yeah, there you go. 

[00:55:02] Mark Corbett: You know, I, I wonder though sometimes. Going back to the CBA, I'm thinking if I was one of those players who was in the midst of negotiating back and forth with MLB, would I get enough of the bug to say, you know, when my career is over, I'd like to, I'd like to have my say in here. I'd like to be able to say something more about that.

[00:55:23] And that's when I go back to saying earlier that there's something about baseball, it's about deciding things. There's, there's arguments involved, there's points of view, and I think those, I could see maybe those elements. I bringing a player to the game, but I understand what you're saying, Lou, why they kind know money three to five 

[00:55:42] Lou Schiff: in, in order to become an attorney.

[00:55:44] It's, uh, a, a three to five year process. 

[00:55:47] Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

[00:55:47] Lou Schiff: Tony Lars's case, it was five years because they allowed him to, to do it was the quarter system. So they allowed him to do two quarters a year for five years. And he, and he got his work in, uh, [00:56:00] the a BA standard now is that you have to complete your studies within five years there are ways of doing it online, but still it would take you five years to do it.

[00:56:09] So I'm not saying that a ball player. Couldn't go to law school. Uh, there was a woman in her last name I, Bianca Smith. And, uh, she was in the Red Sox organization as a coach. , She's an attorney and now I think she's coaching in Japan. , But there aren't a lot of, , I don't know of any current baseball player, uh, that, uh.

[00:56:31] Is is an attorney or in law school, 

[00:56:34] Mat Germain: it would be interesting 'cause I'd look, I took a look at the numbers before we, we came on today and there's 130 lawyers working for Major League Baseball in some way, shape, or form. Overall, when you're looking 

[00:56:45] Lou Schiff: at every team employed by Major League, MLB, employed by Major League Baseball, 

[00:56:49] Mat Germain: major League baseball, and every team, right?

[00:56:51] Because every team has somewhere between four and 10 play, uh, 10 lawyers and then Major League Baseball as their, uh, lawyers, et. So, so when you're looking [00:57:00] at that as a whole and you know that a lot of agencies out there or agents are lawyers as well, or, or they would help them be better agents if they had that kind of background as well.

[00:57:10] So if you're a minor league player and you wanna stick around in baseball, or even if you want to become a GM one day, if you want to be whatever, like having that knowledge of how everything works to me enhances your, your ability. I think of, uh, of a lot of the smart players that I see are teams adopt players that come from Ivy League team, , universities.

[00:57:31] , And , they're really well instructed and, and, you know, if you're a lawyer, you're, you're gonna be thought of in that same way. Um, so I, I think there's a lot to, to kind of explore there in terms of guiding people when they're coming into university and they're, you know, they are playing minor league ball, hey, swing for the fences not only on the field, but also in the program that you choose.

[00:57:54] An arts degree isn't going to get you much in terms of employment when you leave baseball, but [00:58:00] if you happen to be able to work towards a law degree. 

[00:58:03] Lou Schiff: Yeah. Right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:58:08] Mat Germain: That's my sales pitch. 

[00:58:09] Mark Corbett: Well, I tell you what, I can't thank you enough, uh, Lou, for visiting with us here again today, my friend, and its always a pleasure.

[00:58:16] Always a pleasure, Matt. I mean. There's, uh, this book you've got out now, again, attorneys in the Baseball Hall of Fame. I love it. You and Robert Jarvis put this together as far as editing, and there's some great stories in here. As you mentioned, probably no more than 15 to 20 pages on anyone. But I, I gotta say too, I actually did love all the footnotes.

[00:58:35] 'cause I was really curious, wanting to know more about where that fact came from, et cetera. 

[00:58:40] Lou Schiff: That's all backed up. , It was a fun project. , If folks are interested, McFarland, who's our publisher, is now giving a 25% discount on the book between now and the end of November. And so you go to McFarland, I guess it's dot com, and the code is my last name, Schiff, [00:59:00] S-C-H-I-F-F.

[00:59:01] Then the number 25. And during checkout you'll get the book for, uh, 25% off, uh, the price. So if you're interested, if you're not interested, that's okay. You know, it's, uh, it was, it, it was a fun project to do. It took us, uh, I think I started talking to you about this three or four years ago. Yeah. It took us about four years altogether to, to when, when it started.

[00:59:25] We had a different name for the book in the beginning, and then we, we went back and forth with the publisher and then we, we settled, we, we finally settled on this name. And, , McFarland is known, in baseball circles as, as, as, as, uh, publishing really good baseball works. So it's, it's been a fun project and I've worked with some really great folks.

[00:59:46] Mat Germain: So do you have a plan in place for what's next? Are you go, are you tinkering with any kind of ideas on things? No, we 

[00:59:53] Lou Schiff: were talking, yeah, I am. Um, the next. Book, if there is an next book is going to be, and I discussed it [01:00:00] with Mitchell Hamlin School of Law, which is where I went to school, where I teach, I wanna do a and I was going to do a course in January, but I'm not ready to do it yet.

[01:00:10] 'cause I don't have everything the way I want. But it's really on civility. 

[01:00:14] Mark Corbett: Yeah. 

[01:00:15] Lou Schiff: And it's on civility to lawyers and trying to teach law students how to communicate, uh, in a, in a positive way that'll make a difference for themselves and their clients. And, I've talked to one publisher who's very interested and kind of said, we'd really be interested to publish a book like this because there isn't one out there exactly the way you're describing it.

[01:00:40] But it, it just takes a, I wanna do it. And if I was 20 years younger, I would already be in the middle of the project, but. Mark understands Mark's eight months ahead of me, and my road is being a grandfather. So here's how my son, my son's an attorney [01:01:00] and he calls me tonight before we were doing this, the, the show.

[01:01:03] And he says to me, uh, when Emmett's ready to play Little league, you're gonna come up here and, and, and be my assistant coach. I said, no, I'm gonna be the coach. You can be my assistant coach. So, I mean, you know, there's so much, there's so much to do, uh, that I wanna spend. I wanna spend more time with the family, uh, more.

[01:01:25] My wife and I have done a lot of traveling. Uh, I'm working on my golf game, uh, a little bit. I wanna do that. I just, you know what? So. Yeah, I, you know, I, I do wanna do it and I'm, I'm doing, so I'm doing a program for the National Judicial College in, in March on spring training for judges, and we're gonna do it out in Phoenix during spring training the first week of March.

[01:01:49] And some of the things we're gonna talk about, we'll talk a little bit of baseball law. LAW as as opposed to LORE. And we may put some LORE, but we're also gonna emphasize [01:02:00] courtroom demeanor, courtroom control, civility, things like that. Kinda like spring training, you know, for folks just how to navigate through a real crazy world that we live in and do it in such a way that when the people leave the courtroom to quote my good friend David Dinkin, that they, uh, they, they long remember how you made them feel as opposed to what decision you made.

[01:02:20] And if that's the way we can do it as judges then, then we've done our job. You don't, a lot of times you don't wanna remember the name of the judge you appeared in front of, necessarily the same way. You really don't care who the umpire was or the referee was. You just wanna know that they were there, they did their job, and then we all went home.

[01:02:38] Mat Germain: Exactly. No, that's great. And my grandfather always used to tell me the greatest job in the world is being a grandfather. So, um, I I, 

[01:02:45] Lou Schiff: I'm gonna find that out. Mark Mark's gag. Mark's Got that, that thumbs up. I, I'm, I'm gonna find that out pretty soon. I'll see. 

[01:02:52] Mark Corbett: Oh yeah. It's, it is the richest thing in my life is that beautiful little nine month year old girl.

[01:02:57] I mean, it's nine month old girl. She, [01:03:00] she has captured my heart every moment you go. So you're gonna love every moment of it too, Lou, we'll have to share notes as we go along, prepare notes. 

[01:03:08] Lou Schiff: Absolutely. Mark. Absolutely. And 

[01:03:12] Mark Corbett: Matt, thanks again for being here as always, and Lou, for joining me now at this.

[01:03:17] Uh, my 

[01:03:17] Lou Schiff: pleasure. You guys. So much fun to sit and, and, and talk with you. I, you know, it's just like we, we'll pick it up the next time. It's, it's a great conversation. And then be safe guys, and thanks for having me again. You too. You too. 

[01:03:31] Mark Corbett: Well, thank you all again for joining us here today on Baseball Biz On Deck, and we hope you enjoyed this.

[01:03:35] We'll talk to you again real soon.